Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#71

Post by tpm » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:31 AM UTC

perihelions wrote: post #18

junofan wrote: post #3

> The opposition to these climatic manipulations is based on the fact that there are currently no international agreements that address or supervise solar geoengineering activities, which represent an economically advantageous way out for a minority and risky for the supposed remediation of climate change. > We agree that there are no alternative technologies that replace the need to reduce emissions to remediate cli…

It's a symptom of the Great Stagnation. There's a clear crisis with multiple plausible solutions, yet somehow all of humanity has made ~zero progress (on the geoengineering front) for decades. Never mind that the world's wealthier and more democratic than ever; or that information has never been more accessible to anyone who looks for it; or that technology and engineering are at their highest point in the history of…

> We don't solve problems.

Oh yes we do. In face of an ongoing global catastrophe we have solved the problem of how to not care. Fossil propaganda at this scale is an engineering and social challenge which has been successfully solved, with massive investment and violence.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#72

Post by marginalia_nu » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:32 AM UTC

MrOwnPut wrote: post #68

marginalia_nu wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may cause issues, it may not. It's so hard to know, we may not even know even if they do carry out these types of experiments.

Okay, so we're at the next step. Do you support Mexico's decision to stop experiments on the atmosphere that may cause issues?

In the end I don't think it really matters.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#73

Post by cgeier » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #53

cgeier wrote: post #39

I believe (at least) research in solar geoengineering is urgently needed. No, this is not a long-term replacement for bringing down carbon emissions (not least, because carbon also acidifies our oceans), but if you look at the horrible effects climate change is already causing now, imagine how a world will with average temperature raised by 1.5° or 2.0° Celsius.

> but if you look at the horrible effects climate change is already causing now What are those "horrible effects"? And how do you know the cure won't be worst than the supposed "horrible effects" it is meant to make disappear?

Have a look at this for some first ideas: https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/climate/...

(think more draughts, much more intense wildfire seasons, intense rain events, nature's rhythm which is depending on temperature being disturbed).

And I don't know if the "cure" will be worse, that's why for now, I'm only advocating for research into solar geoengineering. (But as the stratospheric release of sulphuric aerosols is also a natural occurring phenomena -- think volcanoes -- it is not something completely new we would be doing here.)

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#74

Post by schiffern » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #29

This isn't a Mexican company; the person behind it is. > Luke Iseman, a serial inventor and the former director of hardware at Y Combinator ... he started tinkering with releasing sulfur dioxide particles into the atmosphere with balloons, raised venture capital to fund the startup, and brought on co-founder Andrew Song to manage sales. Why did they choose Mexico? They couldn't get away with it in the US, so it's ok…

> so it's ok to do experiments with the atmosephere of the people of Mexico?

So it's okay to do experiments with the atmosphere, as long as you re-brand them as "pollution" instead of as "experiments"?

(and of course, organizationally separate the scientists performing the data collection/analysis steps)

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#75

Post by college_physics » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

geoengineering, bioengineering, "AI" in the wild,... at some point we'll realise out-of-control tech in the hands of narrow interests is not your run-of-the mill social malfunction.

But the "cure" is likely to be as bad as the illness: Retaining individual freedom as the confined domain of our planet sees ever more powerful technologies is a highly non-trivial challenge.

We can keep iterating the vacuities of yesteryear or evolve the drastically new thinking and behaviors that will help us get to a sustainable place.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#76

Post by pas » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:34 AM UTC

perihelions wrote: post #18

junofan wrote: post #3

> The opposition to these climatic manipulations is based on the fact that there are currently no international agreements that address or supervise solar geoengineering activities, which represent an economically advantageous way out for a minority and risky for the supposed remediation of climate change. > We agree that there are no alternative technologies that replace the need to reduce emissions to remediate cli…

It's a symptom of the Great Stagnation. There's a clear crisis with multiple plausible solutions, yet somehow all of humanity has made ~zero progress (on the geoengineering front) for decades. Never mind that the world's wealthier and more democratic than ever; or that information has never been more accessible to anyone who looks for it; or that technology and engineering are at their highest point in the history of…

more democratic doesn't mean more effective.

many people prefer spending economic surplus on local stuff (housing, education, healthcare, sewage treatment facility, storm drains, roads, smart phones, cars) then all of this has upkeep.

it seems democracy with a developed economy, and capitalism, and these huge corporations optimize for short-termism, carving up the pie and not for growing it bigger. (there's a basic setting of "1-2 percent growth per year, and it might trickle down")

basic research funding is laughably low (and its quality is also unfortunately low), state capacity has been outsourced, there are no serious large scale publicly funded efforts (which is would have the chance of reaping the benefits of automation/industrialization, economies of scale), no effort to actively counteract the negative effects of globalization (disadvantaged regions can become corporate towns at best, trailer park fentanyl hell at worst), and of course cities are completely Pikachu surprised that urbanization continues and more housing is needed, and more density is needed, etc.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#77

Post by MrOwnPut » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:35 AM UTC

marginalia_nu wrote: post #72

MrOwnPut wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so we're at the next step. Do you support Mexico's decision to stop experiments on the atmosphere that may cause issues?

In the end I don't think it really matters.

That's a cop out to the question and discussion.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#78

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:36 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #31

perihelions wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a symptom of the Great Stagnation. There's a clear crisis with multiple plausible solutions, yet somehow all of humanity has made ~zero progress (on the geoengineering front) for decades. Never mind that the world's wealthier and more democratic than ever; or that information has never been more accessible to anyone who looks for it; or that technology and engineering are at their highest point in the history of…

It's a symptom of the US Republican Party. They are the only thing standing in the way. Don't take it for granted and give them an out; that's how they can keep doing it. Look at the aggressive obstruction - taking action against businesses (remember the party of the free market and business?) who do anything about climate change, even Microsoft for giving Xboxes a sleep mode. That's the problem. If you blame somethi…

[deleted]

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#79

Post by dubcanada » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:37 AM UTC

I really don’t like the idea of solar geoengineering.

If we start sending up sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere and it fixes the problem. What do you think we’re going to do? Stop caring about global warming entirely, and pump way more green house gases… why wouldn’t we? We can just fix it with more sulfur dioxide. Then you send up more and more and more. And eventually something breaks. Now for some reason a countries balloon pops somewhere else and we get acid rain.

I don’t think we should be messing around with the earth until we can actually say that all parties are working towards the same thing. I don’t truly believe all of humanity gives a care about much beyond themselves. Sadly I think we need some kind of global disaster to wake us up. Postponing the problem for years and years has been our solution for everything.

If we get to a place where everyone can agree on a set of rules or principles we can proceed. Until then this is just going to end up with giant oil companies going look we’re not the problem it’s the sulfur balloons we need them! While they frack and drill the earth till there is nothing left.

Same opinion for things like firing missiles into tornados or removing every mosquito from the earth.

But I’m probably in the minority here.

Re: Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering

#80

Post by mcv » Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 9:39 AM UTC

marginalia_nu wrote: post #50

MrOwnPut wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the question. The answer to that is Mexico, the article is about Mexico judging it and "cracking down". The GP was clarifying the context. You refused to talk about the meat of their argument and instead opted to be pedantic about how the atmosphere diffuses.

No it doesn't matter. Where they do this is entirely beside the point. They can do it from international waters. Everyone is affected. Laws are arbitrary.

It's great that Mexico is stepping up and protect the atmosphere, which indeed impacts not just Mexico but everybody, but you're absolutely right that international waters are still a massive loophole in the laws of the world. Almost anything goes, there. Many ships still burn incredibly dirty fuel in international waters, simply because they can and it's cheaper. We really need better international regulation of these sort of commons.