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ASML Q4 2022 financial results

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Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#41

Post by eric-hu »

foota wrote: post #10
sct202 wrote: post #3

I suppose all the chip acts haven't really kicked in yet, so it'll be interesting to see how the regional deliveries shift. In their Presentation Investor Relations file for 2022, they have Taiwan as their #1 destination by dollar spend. Taiwan 42% South Korea 29% China 14% USA 7% Japan 4% Europe, Middle East, Africa (EMEA) 2% Rest of Asia 2%

I wasn't aware that South Korea was such a big player in the chip industry. Is this for compute or something else?

Samsung was a bigger foundry than TSMC until the 2010’s when Apple provided TSMC with billions in interest free loans in exchange for getting first dibs on new fab processes.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#42

Post by NicoJuicy »

Fordec wrote: post #18
gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

The main company there is Zeiss in Germany that makes all the high grade optics. Part of the reason ASML is Dutch is it has access to the German precision manufacturing up-stream, quite literally.

The only 2 companies that i know are invaluable for this is ASML and IMEC ( Belgium)

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#43

Post by docandrew »

kube-system wrote: post #38
gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

At some point upstream it’s all ore and petroleum.

“If it can’t be grown, it’s gotta be mined.”

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#44

Post by wordoneone »

ragebol wrote: post #22
Fordec wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main company there is Zeiss in Germany that makes all the high grade optics. Part of the reason ASML is Dutch is it has access to the German precision manufacturing up-stream, quite literally.

Zeiss makes parts of the ASML machines. GP comment asks what machine make the ASML/Zeiss machines. CNC machines I guess for everything besides the optics? Just a guess. And measuring equipment.

[flagged]

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#45

Post by nickff »

morpheos137 wrote: post #33

Doesn't the fact all major photolithography equipment manufacturers are outside Taiwan undermine the media narrative about the strategic importance of TSMC?

Not really; TSMC is a critical part of the production process, and has a great many trade secrets and internal tools that make it indispensable. These machines are not ‘plug-and-play’.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#46

Post by pphysch »

markus_zhang wrote: post #37
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's not really any magic. I've read that it would take China at least 10 years to get to ASML's current level. It might not be magic but there must be a lot of unknowns when starting from scratch.

10 years is probably an underestimate given then current geopolitical condition.

Underestimate? Unless Washington aggressively nukes mainland China, recent overperformance by a post-Zero-COVID China suggests 10y is an overestimate.

Existential stress is an excellent motivator for rapid innovation. Or did we learn nothing from the 20th century?

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#47

Post by ShuffleBoard »

somethoughts wrote: post #9
hardware2win wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It comes from ASML They and TSMC are one of the hottest companies that additionally do hard engineering instead of social medias or ads

AMAT (Applied Materials) would be company representing the US in this space. AMAT and ASML sell mostly complimentary semiconductor equipment to TSMC/Intel/Samsung (semiconductor manufacturers/fabs)

Neither AMAT nor ASML sell complimentary equipment. They sell vituperative, emotionally eviscerating, angry-at-the-world equipment.

Now I think their product lines complement each other nicely on a fab floor.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#48

Post by drexlspivey »

kube-system wrote: post #38
gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

At some point upstream it’s all ore and petroleum.

If you keep going up it’s all hydrogen

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#49

Post by nwiswell »

mgfist wrote: post #35
nwiswell wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc…

The magic must be in the orchestration then, I'd suppose. Otherwise China wouldn't be struggling so much.

Partly orchestration, but mostly in the design of those proprietary parts. There's decades of institutional knowledge and engineering iterations involved here. IP is a huge concern because if a Chinese competitor got their hands on the engineering drawings, there would not be a whole lot to stop them from producing copies.

Patents are viewed somewhat skeptically, since if they are not actually enforceable against a likely offender, they simply serve as a disclosure mechanism.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#50

Post by nwiswell »

cactusplant7374 wrote: post #31
nwiswell wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc…

> There's not really any magic. I've read that it would take China at least 10 years to get to ASML's current level. It might not be magic but there must be a lot of unknowns when starting from scratch.

Yes, the design of those proprietary parts is very technical, but the manufacturing not so much. That's part of what makes the IP situation so tenuous and is a big part of why the FBI has aggressively prosecuted individuals for corporate espionage against WFE firms in the past.
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