ASML Q4 2022 financial results • Hacker News Board

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#21

Post by nwiswell » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:36 PM UTC

gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers.

For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc are all bought from suppliers.

There's not really any magic. The materials used for the parts are sometimes exotic (e.g. single crystal silicon, single crystal quartz, yttria coating, PEEK, sapphire, etc), but the contract manufacturers use the same old boring machine tools that everyone does.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#22

Post by ragebol » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:37 PM UTC

Fordec wrote: post #18

gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

The main company there is Zeiss in Germany that makes all the high grade optics. Part of the reason ASML is Dutch is it has access to the German precision manufacturing up-stream, quite literally.

Zeiss makes parts of the ASML machines. GP comment asks what machine make the ASML/Zeiss machines.

CNC machines I guess for everything besides the optics? Just a guess. And measuring equipment.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#23

Post by hashtag-til » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:41 PM UTC

nwiswell wrote: post #21

gallerdude wrote: post #16

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc…

Oh come on… you just broke the myth I had on my mind for many years, that this company was some magical craftwork shop for mechanical parts.

Anyway, nice to get a bit more realistic view. Thanks!

Eager to hear more about the software, which I heard some crazy stuff about how it is engineered and tested.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#24

Post by cma » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

iruoy wrote: post #19

somethoughts wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMAT (Applied Materials) would be company representing the US in this space. AMAT and ASML sell mostly complimentary semiconductor equipment to TSMC/Intel/Samsung (semiconductor manufacturers/fabs)

I wouldn't call ASML's products complimentary. They are the only machines capable of EUV lithography. Without EUV, nodes smaller than 7nm wouldn't be possible. But even before EUV they were the leading manufacturer of lithography machines. They deliver to all the big players like TSMC, Samsung and Intel. They are so important/valuable that the US government is negotiating with the Dutch government to ban ASML from se…

They were already able to ban, because ASML's EUV effort partly came out of a DARPA/US-industry consortium (EUV LLC from the 1990s).

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#25

Post by m00dy » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:43 PM UTC

terafo wrote: post #20

iruoy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call ASML's products complimentary. They are the only machines capable of EUV lithography. Without EUV, nodes smaller than 7nm wouldn't be possible. But even before EUV they were the leading manufacturer of lithography machines. They deliver to all the big players like TSMC, Samsung and Intel. They are so important/valuable that the US government is negotiating with the Dutch government to ban ASML from se…

They are negotiating DUV ban. EUV is banned for years now.

I remember bridgewater shorted ASML for big positions for no reason and then the news broke out that US government banned ASML from selling some stuff to China.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#26

Post by nwiswell » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:45 PM UTC

iruoy wrote: post #19

somethoughts wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMAT (Applied Materials) would be company representing the US in this space. AMAT and ASML sell mostly complimentary semiconductor equipment to TSMC/Intel/Samsung (semiconductor manufacturers/fabs)

I wouldn't call ASML's products complimentary. They are the only machines capable of EUV lithography. Without EUV, nodes smaller than 7nm wouldn't be possible. But even before EUV they were the leading manufacturer of lithography machines. They deliver to all the big players like TSMC, Samsung and Intel. They are so important/valuable that the US government is negotiating with the Dutch government to ban ASML from se…

They're complimentary products because lithography isn't useful if you don't have Etch, CVD, PVD, ALD, CMP, Implant, etc.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#27

Post by nwiswell » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 10:52 PM UTC

hashtag-til wrote: post #23

nwiswell wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc…

Oh come on… you just broke the myth I had on my mind for many years, that this company was some magical craftwork shop for mechanical parts. Anyway, nice to get a bit more realistic view. Thanks! Eager to hear more about the software, which I heard some crazy stuff about how it is engineered and tested.

Sorry :)

I should not really say too much, but the software tends to be kind of a trainwreck. WFE companies are definitely engineering-first organizations, but software is a second-order concern in general since it is a check-the-box requirement rather than a truly differentiating product feature, and companies like Lam and AMAT which are headquartered in the Valley have serious trouble competing for software talent. Moreover the software has a multi-decade pedigree with a concordant amount of technical debt. Pretty much everything is C++.

Anyway, there are fairly well-specified standards issued by SEMI like SECS-II and GEM that govern interoperability. In my (highly biased) opinion, the really interesting stuff is the real-time control systems that operate on millisecond timescales to make minute adjustments on the fly using data from onboard sensors to improve process outcomes.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#28

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 11:11 PM UTC

Man, the crypto + AI booms have been really good for the semiconductor industry. Everyone there is doing gangbusters: NVDA, AMD, ASML, AMAT, TSMC. The margins for these "shovel makers" are quite incredible. Good stuff. The way that's worked out for all of us is just amazing. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I'd wait for the new Intel processor to come out, excited just to read about it and dream of it.

It's curious that Intel has come out of this hardware boom completely mid.

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#29

Post by deepnotderp » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 11:16 PM UTC

foota wrote: post #10

sct202 wrote: post #3

I suppose all the chip acts haven't really kicked in yet, so it'll be interesting to see how the regional deliveries shift. In their Presentation Investor Relations file for 2022, they have Taiwan as their #1 destination by dollar spend. Taiwan 42% South Korea 29% China 14% USA 7% Japan 4% Europe, Middle East, Africa (EMEA) 2% Rest of Asia 2%

I wasn't aware that South Korea was such a big player in the chip industry. Is this for compute or something else?

Samsung and SK Hynix are both big consumers of lithography machines

Re: ASML Q4 2022 financial results

#30

Post by KptMarchewa » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 11:20 PM UTC

foota wrote: post #10

sct202 wrote: post #3

I suppose all the chip acts haven't really kicked in yet, so it'll be interesting to see how the regional deliveries shift. In their Presentation Investor Relations file for 2022, they have Taiwan as their #1 destination by dollar spend. Taiwan 42% South Korea 29% China 14% USA 7% Japan 4% Europe, Middle East, Africa (EMEA) 2% Rest of Asia 2%

I wasn't aware that South Korea was such a big player in the chip industry. Is this for compute or something else?

For example, Samsung and Hynix are Korean companies that together have 75% of global RAM market.