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Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

motorsformakers.com

51–60 of 104 posts

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#51
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems i lack vision. should i use a stepper or a servo for the robot arm i'm designing ? Stepper motors are best for precise, open-loop control applications where position and speed can be accurately controlled. They are also a good choice for low-speed, high-torque applications. However, they tend to be less efficient than servo motors and can generate more heat. Servo motors are best for closed-loop control applica…

This advice is not good. Robot arms should use harmonic drive gearboxes and servos, IMO. In practice, if the loads are not massively high, the important thing is closed loop steppers or servos, with accurate homing routines and good error handling.

It depends on the kind of load and the job. Harmonic drives tend to shear teeth if they get a shock load. It's good to have a back-driveable gear train, so that if the arm hits something or is overloaded, the forces push back to the motor, and the controller can see them and stop or deal with the problem. For something like a pick and place machine, you don't need that, but if you're trying to put screws into holes and might miss, you do.

3-phase servomotors (which used to be called "brushless DC servomotors") are much more available than they used to be. Drone motors are tiny 3-phase motors, and can be controlled as servomotors. The drone industry has done a lot to make such motors cheaper. The controllers are much smaller and cheaper now, too. They used to be the size of a book or worse. But they're still more expensive than they should be. I was once at a trade show talking to a rep from a motor company I'd used, and noticed they now sold controllers, too. He said, yes, they had to get into the business because others were selling controllers for 10x the cost of the motor, and they cost about the same to make.

For a long time, you had to bolt the encoder on the back of the motor, and encoders cost way too much. Motors with built-in encoders have become more common.

"RC servos" from model aircraft are cheap, but crappy actuators. They're advancing from 1970s pulse width modulation control to 1980s serial, and for under $20 you can now get some force feedback.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#52
post #51
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice is not good. Robot arms should use harmonic drive gearboxes and servos, IMO. In practice, if the loads are not massively high, the important thing is closed loop steppers or servos, with accurate homing routines and good error handling.

It depends on the kind of load and the job. Harmonic drives tend to shear teeth if they get a shock load. It's good to have a back-driveable gear train, so that if the arm hits something or is overloaded, the forces push back to the motor, and the controller can see them and stop or deal with the problem. For something like a pick and place machine, you don't need that, but if you're trying to put screws into holes a…

Very good point about harmonic drives and backdriveability. I had forgotten that problem.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#54
post #32
post #20

Does anybody have an address where to shop servos and gearboxes online? Or at least find references through filtering for specific torque/rpm/power/driver resolution... etc.? I hardly can find something worth looking at outside of ebay. A lot of websites don't have public price lists but ask you to fill forms and receive quotes, but I don't want to order thousands of these (yet?)...

Assuming you're talking about AC servos typically used for industrial equipment (and not the DC kind used for robots or RC aircraft), there are kind of two routes you can go. On the easy hobbyist route, you can get the parts from a nice online store with email support like DamenCNC [0]. You'll need to read the spec sheet to find the speed/torque/resolution though. On the harder route, you collect a bunch of spec shee…

Thank you for this comprehensive comment. I appreciate it.

I did the drawings of several drones and robot arms, and accurately computed the needed torque. I target specific precisions for several applications.

I’m a mathematician so the math is straightforward to me though as you said, it’s super easy to overlook something without the appropriate experience, especially since it’s cross disciplinary (ME, EE, SE… etc. All at once yeah!)

I found these for instance on eBay:

* https://www.ebay.com/itm/393967889048

* https://www.ebay.com/itm/275442630163

I can get from them more than 120Nm with the appropriate planetary gearbox without sacrificing too much speed and even more with gas springs compensating the static loads… theoretically… but I’m a bit skeptic about the announced 12Nm and the 51200microsteps/rev resolution for instance.

I think it’s better (in my case) to have access to maximum IO on the encoder side.

I’ll double check the electrical installation with a pro for sure, I already did a mistake in the past that almost destroyed the house boiler in the middle of the winter… lesson learned.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#55
post #36

One thing to note about steppers, If you take them apart they will loose half their torque. In the factory they magnetize them after assembly. If you take them apart the lower permeability of air causes the rotor to somehow lose much of it's magnetic field. Physicists please chime in, IDK why this happens. We discovered this after machining some stepper backshells to accept optical encoders.

This is fascinating, I hope someone knows the answer. Is it possible that they magnetized the teeth of the rotor as a Halbach array?

Any permanent magnet demagnetizes partially whenever it is taken out of a closed magnetic circuit.

If the magnet is made from a material with very high coercivity, the demagnetization may be negligible, but it is always recommended to store permanent magnets only with a piece of soft iron in contact with their N and S poles.

To reach the maximum remanence possible for a given material, a permanent magnet must always be magnetized after being assembled in the final magnetic circuit.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#58

One thing to note about steppers, If you take them apart they will loose half their torque. In the factory they magnetize them after assembly. If you take them apart the lower permeability of air causes the rotor to somehow lose much of it's magnetic field. Physicists please chime in, IDK why this happens. We discovered this after machining some stepper backshells to accept optical encoders.

If you're familiar with electronics: Imagine you have a current source, driving 1 amp through a variable resistor set to a very low resistance. It only takes less than a volt to sustain that current, so your current source is quite happy to do this. Then, without turning off the current source, you increase the resistance: now the current source needs a lot more voltage to sustain that current.

From the current source's point of view, the voltage across the resistor looks indistinguishable from a voltage source pushing back against it. Even though that voltage is coming from the resistive load, even though that voltage only exists across the resistor because of the 1 amp that the current source is itself driving, the load acts the same as a voltage source fighting to drive current backwards into the current source.

Imagine that your current source is not ideal: it has voltage limits. If you want to squeeze the most power out of your current source, you'll set the resistance up such that the resulting output voltage is near the limit of what your current source can handle while still supplying 1 amp. If you increase the resistance further, you'll exceed the voltage rating and possibly damage your current source. Then even if you return the resistance to a low level after that, you might not get 1 amp anymore from that damaged source.

All of this has been an analogy. Permanent magnets are a lot like non-ideal sources that cannot turn off. To squeeze the very most out of the magnet, you want to configure the load such that it's driving the magnet to its limits. When you remove the rotor from the stator, it now has to push magnetic field through air, rather than through steel. This increases the effective demagnetizing load working against the magnet (known as "reluctance", analagous to resistance). It's no different from the magnet's point of view than if you'd looped an electromagnet wire around it fighting against its magnetization. Permanent magnets are magnetized through a hysteresis process, and with a strong enough demagnetizing field, the internal domains can flip and the magnet gets demagnetized.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#59

One problem I always run into with rotary motion: gearing. Finding gears of the right diameter, thickness, and thread pitch is always such a stumbling block for me. Most sites that sell gears to fit their motors have a small selection, and sites that sell gears are very hard to navigate (only to find out they don't sell in quantities <1,000 units). I end up having them laser cut out of HDPE online. Wish there was an…

This was PRECISELY the problem that led me to get a 3D printer. I have successfully printed many gears using PETG for my projects. Now, they are physically bigger than metal gears for the same strength, but that hasn't been an issue in my applications. Using the wishbone-style gear teeth with 3D printing is remarkably sturdy. Of course the other way is: buy motors with (metal) gears that are close to your need - then you only need to 'transform' that motion a little bit.

I also can cut involute gears on the (mini-) lathe or mill. You want to practice this skill because being off just a little means you have a useless part. I have found 3D printing more convenient and forgiving.

Re: Motors for Makers: A Guide to Steppers, Servos, and Other Electrical Machines (2015)

#60
post #21
post #20

Does anybody have an address where to shop servos and gearboxes online? Or at least find references through filtering for specific torque/rpm/power/driver resolution... etc.? I hardly can find something worth looking at outside of ebay. A lot of websites don't have public price lists but ask you to fill forms and receive quotes, but I don't want to order thousands of these (yet?)...

If you are doing servos and not well versed in these things, I highly recommend clearpath servos from teknic. The wiring is easy and their tuning support is very good (if the auto tune doesn’t work). If you need more power, or AC servos, I suggest DMM Dyn4 drives and servos. Finally, if you need gearboxes, stepper online has good ones that have held up well for me. Source: have built/converted several CNCs.

I'll second DMM. Unlike most servo companies, they post their pricelist, making it easy to figure out which tradeoffs you need to make to stay on budget: https://dmm-tech.com/pricing.html
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