Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#101

Post by ptudan » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

birdymcbird wrote: post #55

scottiebarnes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of activists/politicians having any say in who companies hire disgusts me But does it disgust you when companies discriminate based on age/gender/sexual orientation/race/disability/religion/etc? Should corporations be accountable to society in some way, or do we trust them to "do the right thing"?

> Should corporations be accountable to society in some way, or do we trust them to "do the right thing"? This strawman. you jumping to big conclusion by asking aggressive question. im minority person. dei things me saw at big tech massive grift. usually run by people without real skill..people who simply there for crusade if they personal social beliefs. in one org person responsible for daily long email on trans is…

Somethings are definitely stupid, but I don't really see what's bad about changing whitelist. White = good and black = bad is a weird concept that when using an American lens, is hard not to see implied racism.

Plus, allowlist and denylist is simply easier to understand.

I agree that if your entire job is coming up with this kind of stuff, that's a bit ridiculous. But I don't really see anything wrong with a few engineers spending a few hours a month to push company discourse in a more egalitarian direction.

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#102

Post by brodouevencode » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

testfoobar wrote: post #41

DEI departments and projects have a fervor to them that is near religious: the core tenets are faith based and impossible to challenge scientifically. Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The thing is DEI efforts oftentimes mask comical understanding of history and blindingly gross racism. Personal anecdote: How do you deal with people who pr…

> How do you deal with people who proudly wear "Antiracist" t-shirts, but will quickly tell you Asians are opportunity hoarders who must hate their kids because they focus too much on academics.

That sounds pretty bigoted, so make a complaint to HR. Putting on a 49ers jersey doesn't make me a true fan.

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#103

Post by kypro » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #58

kypro wrote: post #20

I predicted this would likely happen at the start of the year. I don't think it was an accident that tech become one of the main industries pushing D&I over the last several years. Whatever your opinion is on D&I it's arguably not something a company would put significant investment or time into unless they had spare margin and cashflows. This isn't a political comment, just an observation as someone who works for a…

My, perhaps bitter, opinion is that D&I was pushed heavily by tech to get more workers in so that wages could be suppressed. The layoffs happening across all tech companies (including the ones recording record profits and that have extremely large cash reserves) also strikes me as another way of depressing tech salaries. Maybe this perspective doesn't hold much weight, because why then get rid of D&I? Maybe because k…

The reason I thought D&I teams would get cut is because I believe in a lot of companies today these departments are reducing productivity and workplace satisfaction. No one wants to work for a company where you're likelihood of being promoted is, in part, dependant on having the right immutable characteristics.

The issue is when times are good and companies are expanding it's hard to justify why you're suddenly cutting people who work in D&I roles. And you can't even freeze their hiring because even that looks bad when every other department is still growing their headcount 10% YoY.

But now for the first time in many years tech companies have an excuse to cut fat - so who are they going to cut? Well, it's not going to be the engineer who's been their for 10+ years who has built several essential tools and services. It's generally going to be teams who work on speculative innovation projects that are likely going nowhere and those from departments offering little value to the company such as D&I.

My opinion on the tech layoffs from the start has been that if you're a good engineer who's providing value, or is able to provide value elsewhere, it's unlikely you'll be impacted much. Even if you're let go.

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#104

Post by brodouevencode » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #61

testfoobar wrote: post #41

DEI departments and projects have a fervor to them that is near religious: the core tenets are faith based and impossible to challenge scientifically. Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The thing is DEI efforts oftentimes mask comical understanding of history and blindingly gross racism. Personal anecdote: How do you deal with people who pr…

> Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The one that continually upsets me (as someone who grew up in a predominantly Hispanic community, is married to a Hispanic person, has Hispanic children, and speaks Spanish as a fluent second language and in the home) is the use of the term "LatinX" which has spread through the DEI community and now gene…

Tell them you identify as Latino?

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#105

Post by kneebonian » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

ptudan wrote: post #101

birdymcbird wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should corporations be accountable to society in some way, or do we trust them to "do the right thing"? This strawman. you jumping to big conclusion by asking aggressive question. im minority person. dei things me saw at big tech massive grift. usually run by people without real skill..people who simply there for crusade if they personal social beliefs. in one org person responsible for daily long email on trans is…

Somethings are definitely stupid, but I don't really see what's bad about changing whitelist. White = good and black = bad is a weird concept that when using an American lens, is hard not to see implied racism. Plus, allowlist and denylist is simply easier to understand. I agree that if your entire job is coming up with this kind of stuff, that's a bit ridiculous. But I don't really see anything wrong with a few engi…

Actually listened to an interesting lecture on the ancient far east. The White = good and black = bad had originated from the people of the Levant originally, and I mean a long time ago, like before 600BC long ago.

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#106

Post by tristor » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #96

tristor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying none were qualified? If so isn't that a problem with education/preparation? Yes, in other words... a pipeline problem. When you have bars set in fields where outcomes are tangible (STEM), you cannot improve the situation by lowering the bar, you must improve the situation by improving the populace so more can get over the bar. This is a lot harder to do, and not possible to do in a way that juices th…

An EDI advocate I talked to was of the opinion that lowering the bar was the best and only way to include more minorities in tech. When I asked her whether she felt the same about men in nursing, she said that nursing is a critical function and standards can't be lowered. I'm pretty sure the casual racism and misogyny she displayed are par for the course among genuine believers in the EDI space, most just being bette…

Yes, I have encountered this often from DEI folks as well. Thomas Sowell calls this the "soft bigotry of low expectations." It's definitely compounded by lay-people thinking that STEM disciplines are somehow less critical or dangerous than medical functions... not realizing that STEM functions often become medical (or other life-critical) functions. Someone has to design the medical technology, write software for the machines, and design the vaccines, design the medicines, all of these are STEM roles.

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#107

Post by throwawayacc3 » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

zenzen wrote: post #14

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear what D&I consultants can do in order to conjure more non-Asian computer science students out of thin air to fill that pipeline.

It’s not a pipeline problem https://www.fastcompany.com/90596325/its-time-to-debunk-the-...

>iT's NoT a PiPeLiNe PrObLeM!

Opinion piece by leftist Karen

Former editor at Woman's Day

All pronouns welcome[0]

"Here's your chance to nominate queer women and non binary people who are making an impact"[1]

Every time. It's all so tiresome.

[0] https://twitter.com/KathleenEDavis

[1] https://twitter.com/KathleenEDavis/status/161362741211319911...

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#108

Post by ptudan » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:26 PM UTC

kneebonian wrote: post #105

ptudan wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somethings are definitely stupid, but I don't really see what's bad about changing whitelist. White = good and black = bad is a weird concept that when using an American lens, is hard not to see implied racism. Plus, allowlist and denylist is simply easier to understand. I agree that if your entire job is coming up with this kind of stuff, that's a bit ridiculous. But I don't really see anything wrong with a few engi…

Actually listened to an interesting lecture on the ancient far east. The White = good and black = bad had originated from the people of the Levant originally, and I mean a long time ago, like before 600BC long ago.

I don't deny that there's historical things to be said about light being good and darkness being bad. That definitely has nothing to do with racism. I have nothing against yin and yang etc

But modern America has a modern lens, not a 600BC lens. Why ignore that?

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#109

Post by taylodl » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #61

testfoobar wrote: post #41

DEI departments and projects have a fervor to them that is near religious: the core tenets are faith based and impossible to challenge scientifically. Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The thing is DEI efforts oftentimes mask comical understanding of history and blindingly gross racism. Personal anecdote: How do you deal with people who pr…

> Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The one that continually upsets me (as someone who grew up in a predominantly Hispanic community, is married to a Hispanic person, has Hispanic children, and speaks Spanish as a fluent second language and in the home) is the use of the term "LatinX" which has spread through the DEI community and now gene…

It's sad how many Americans don't realize how many white people live in Latin America - they've lived all their lives in Latin America and their families have been in Latin America for centuries. We definitely have a stereotype for those living in Latin America. That and not everybody in Latin America speaks Spanish, either. But hey, I'm a white guy! What do I know about other people and cultures?!

Re: Big Tech Layoffs Are Hitting Diversity and Inclusion Jobs Hard

#110

Post by tristor » Wed, Jan 25, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

brodouevencode wrote: post #104

tristor wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Challenge any DEI tenet and your are immediately met with threats of excommunication. Get in line or you're out. The one that continually upsets me (as someone who grew up in a predominantly Hispanic community, is married to a Hispanic person, has Hispanic children, and speaks Spanish as a fluent second language and in the home) is the use of the term "LatinX" which has spread through the DEI community and now gene…

Tell them you identify as Latino?

I don't, though. And I see no point in any such gamesmanship. I'm a white man with Turkish and Scottish heritages, born in middle US, and am not Latino or Hispanic by birth, only by association in later life. While I participate in the culture, I am not of the culture, and would never claim to be. I have my own culture, which I also participate in and claim.

This, in fact, is one of the major difficulties with DEI. My identity has no bearing on the truth or falsity of my words, my observations, or my statements. It is simply the truth that "LatinX" does not work in the Spanish language, it's effectively unpronounceable, and it is directly targeting a language feature from the perspective of English speakers as applied to a another language, which means that in so many ways it is insulting, offensive, and colonialistic. It should not require one to identify as Hispanic or Latino to say this (or to be aware of it). It feels intentionally racist, because anyone who purports to be representing the ideal of helping this community should surely be aware of such basic things about Hispanic culture and the Spanish language.