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Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

hindenburgresearch.com

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Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#161

Post by Thorrez »

trustingtrust wrote: post #153
arcticfox wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Betting against it is doing business with the company. What do you mean? I struggle to understand how betting against a company is "doing business" with them, it seems even less like "doing business" than having no relationship at all. You are actively signaling you expect them to fail.

I think 'with' was the wrong word here. Betting against a company is being in business around the company. Meaning you still trust the business, just trust it enough to fail. You can't not trust something and at the same time bet against it. You must trust one of the two if you want to be involved with the company.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short.

If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#162

Post by vkou »

arcticfox wrote: post #151
stephen_g wrote: post #35

Wow. Adani is super scummy, and from research when they were starting construction on a big mine in Australia we knew they were structuring their tax affairs to not pay any tax here [1], but all this is something else. They have been suing a climate activist here for millions of dollars, and as part of it they had private investigators following him, his wife, and his children , including photographing his children w…

In one of those very odd Baader-Meinhof moments, I was reading about a different Indian mining company (Vedanta) today for the first time in my life. The controversies surrounding them look almost exactly like what you describe here with Adani. I guess once you've spotted a scummy Indian mining company you start to see them all over?

> I guess once you've spotted a scummy Indian mining company you start to see them all over?

Non-Indian[1] mining companies operate in a similar way. When the mines they operate are in the global south, political and indigenous opponents to them have a habit of ending up in pieces.

Oh, it's not the executives in Toronto that are ordering organizers murdered and stuffed into oil drums - it's just the problem-solvers that their overseas branches happen to employ...

[1] https://justice-project.org/the-canada-brand-violence-and-ca...

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#164

Post by smabie »

Thorrez wrote: post #161
trustingtrust wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 'with' was the wrong word here. Betting against a company is being in business around the company. Meaning you still trust the business, just trust it enough to fail. You can't not trust something and at the same time bet against it. You must trust one of the two if you want to be involved with the company.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short. If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

Well, then you couldn't cover your short position.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#165

Post by defrost »

vkou wrote: post #162
arcticfox wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one of those very odd Baader-Meinhof moments, I was reading about a different Indian mining company (Vedanta) today for the first time in my life. The controversies surrounding them look almost exactly like what you describe here with Adani. I guess once you've spotted a scummy Indian mining company you start to see them all over?

> I guess once you've spotted a scummy Indian mining company you start to see them all over? Non-Indian[1] mining companies operate in a similar way. When the mines they operate are in the global south, political and indigenous opponents to them have a habit of ending up in pieces. Oh, it's not the executives in Toronto that are ordering organizers murdered and stuffed into oil drums - it's just the problem-solvers t…

Just to be clear here, the Toronto TSX and TSXV exchanges are home to more mining companies than any other market in the globe; as such companies listed there aren't neccesarily majority owned or controlled by Canadian citizens (although there is a huge Anglo-Australian presence there).

That said, shitty behaviour in the "global south" (or towards indigenous land holders enclaved with the US, Canada, or Australia) is common enough across the board no matter the nationalities of majority owners and board members.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#166

Post by viknesh »

Thorrez wrote: post #161
trustingtrust wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 'with' was the wrong word here. Betting against a company is being in business around the company. Meaning you still trust the business, just trust it enough to fail. You can't not trust something and at the same time bet against it. You must trust one of the two if you want to be involved with the company.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short. If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

If a company disappears tomorrow, how would you realize the gains on the short? If there is no liquid stock to trade, they're just paper gains. You'd have to wait until legal proceedings end.

What you are betting on in a short position is for the company to continue to exist, but at a lower valuation.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#167

Post by Thorrez »

viknesh wrote: post #166
Thorrez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short. If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

If a company disappears tomorrow, how would you realize the gains on the short? If there is no liquid stock to trade, they're just paper gains. You'd have to wait until legal proceedings end. What you are betting on in a short position is for the company to continue to exist, but at a lower valuation.

My naive understanding: In a short you borrow then sell immediately. If the company disappears you keep the money from the sale (which you already made) and never have to return what you borrowed.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#168

Post by Thorrez »

smabie wrote: post #164
Thorrez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short. If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

Well, then you couldn't cover your short position.

Why would you need to? Who wants it back?

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#169

Post by seanhunter »

viknesh wrote: post #166
Thorrez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're trusting the company when you bet against it. You're trusting the stock market and brokerage you're using to do the short. If the company completely disappears tomorrow, your short will be profitable.

If a company disappears tomorrow, how would you realize the gains on the short? If there is no liquid stock to trade, they're just paper gains. You'd have to wait until legal proceedings end. What you are betting on in a short position is for the company to continue to exist, but at a lower valuation.

Hindenburg specialise in doing this. They know the endgame better than anyone. You can guarantee they have a plan which will result in them getting paid off if their short thesis is correct.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#170

Post by adaml_623 »

Thorrez wrote: post #167
viknesh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company disappears tomorrow, how would you realize the gains on the short? If there is no liquid stock to trade, they're just paper gains. You'd have to wait until legal proceedings end. What you are betting on in a short position is for the company to continue to exist, but at a lower valuation.

My naive understanding: In a short you borrow then sell immediately. If the company disappears you keep the money from the sale (which you already made) and never have to return what you borrowed.

I agree with you 99.8%. I think there would be a clause in any short contract where if you were unable to provide the stock at the end then you would be liable to pay the cash equivalent. If the stock had "gone to the moon" you would be bankrupt but if the stock had gone to zero then your payment would be zero (or maybe miniscule)
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