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Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

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Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#131

Post by stephen_g »

testrun wrote: post #127
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And despite the obviousness of the tax structuring and other, worse, scummy behaviour, the Australian Government at the time was determined to push ahead with clearing the path for Adani to operate what would have been one of largest, if not the largest, mines in Australia. Infuriating.

That same government is still in power. It is the Labor government in Queensland, for anybody that is wondering.

Yes. Our biggest problem in Queensland is that Labor aren't very good, but the opposition (LNP) is much worse and are basically just an absolute joke - they were a complete disaster last time they were in power (and voted out in a huge wipeout the very next election), have a lot of far-right crazies, are incompetent and extremely ideological. Minor parties like the Greens are getting more traction because of it, and there's been a big independent movement in the last few years across the country so perhaps that will dilute Labor's power somewhat. But we'll have to see next election...

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#132

Post by thefreeman »

stale2002 wrote: post #125
chii wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company being vaporized is always a risk of shorting why is that a risk tho? If you shorted something, the money is already in your hands (aka, you "sell" short presumably, where you make a buck selling it now, and have to put up cash in the future to make the short whole). If in the future, the company vaporized, then wouldn't you no longer owe the shorted stock?

The issue is one of margin calling, and other institutions being unwilling to lend you infinite amounts of money. Even if your investment strategy is sound, if in the short term, you on paper owe stock that is "worth" billions of dollars, the institutions that you are owning this paper billions of dollars too, could be unwilling to just trust that you will be able to pay it. Thus, they bake in contractual provisions,…

But if the stock goes to zero and you are shorting it the trade was massively profitable. why would you then be at risk of a margin call?

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#133

Post by jimbob45 »

Drblessing wrote: post #108
jimbob45 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Are you inciting violence?

What's the alternative? Wait for the CIA to arrange for him to have an "accident"? How is that any different than a lynch mob?

Note that I'd be taking a different tone if it didn't seem like he was actively evading governmental control.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#134

Post by themitigating »

stephen_g wrote: post #131
testrun wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That same government is still in power. It is the Labor government in Queensland, for anybody that is wondering.

Yes. Our biggest problem in Queensland is that Labor aren't very good, but the opposition (LNP) is much worse and are basically just an absolute joke - they were a complete disaster last time they were in power (and voted out in a huge wipeout the very next election), have a lot of far-right crazies, are incompetent and extremely ideological. Minor parties like the Greens are getting more traction because of it, and…

What did they do that was worse?

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#135

Post by derf_ »

chii wrote: post #122
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since these guys are professional investors I assume they have access to more complex financial instruments they can use for a short position. Maybe the company being vaporized is always a risk of shorting though, not a finance guy so I have no idea.

> the company being vaporized is always a risk of shorting why is that a risk tho? If you shorted something, the money is already in your hands (aka, you "sell" short presumably, where you make a buck selling it now, and have to put up cash in the future to make the short whole). If in the future, the company vaporized, then wouldn't you no longer owe the shorted stock?

No, you still owe the stock, but if trading is halted or the stock's registration is revoked, you cannot close the position. That means that (a) you still owe (daily!) stock borrow fees, and (b) you are still required to keep collateral posted against the shares with your broker (because the stock is not trading, the last posted price can be considerably above zero, so this can tie up a non-trivial amount of money).

In recent memory, this has happened to Longfin Corp. [0], Cynk Technologies [1], China Biotics [2], and surely others. If it does happen before you can close out a short position, that's bad. You can be stuck that way for years [3].

[0] https://www.sec.gov/enforce/information-longfin-investors

[1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/suspensions/2014/34-72594.pdf

[2] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/opinions/2013/34-70800.pdf

[3] https://www.barrons.com/articles/getting-caught-short-152306...

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#136

Post by Ralo »

serverholic wrote: post #129
Ralo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a good opportunity for me since I had nothing much to offer most employers. It was between that or unemployed.

I understand that but it doesn’t justify why it had to be a bad work environment.

Whats your solution though? Strike? People will still apply and work there because it's bad, but not slave labour. Unionize? They'll entirely stop hiring people without experience and change their business model.

Their business model was to be the cheapest. Cheapest employees, cheapest parts. They filled the market share for people looking for cheap cheap parts. That involves crappy service.

If they raised their employee pay, the entire business model goes belly up. That means, no more cheap cheap parts for customers and no entry job positions for employees looking to break the field.

It was a delicate balance of ""exploitation"" and keeping them happy enough they are willing to stay.

If you have nothing to offer the company besides a pulse, you don't get to pick and choose. Why would that be fair to force a company to pay more for no reason? Sometimes you put up with bullshit for a couple years and then you get to be more picky.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#137

Post by djbusby »

skizm wrote: post #68

If these companies assets or stocks go to zero or are locked due to fraud or something that makes the actual public stocks untradable, how do you get out of a short position? Borrowing and selling the stock means you can’t get it back to return to the original owner, and buying put options means you can’t sell the stock to the contract holder. Do you have to get out before it gets completely vaporized?

If you buy a PUT option on a stock, at a low strike (far OTM) as the stock is tanking your PUT becomes more valuable and you can sell that.

If the stock is near zero and you have a contract to sell at $5 - that's profit.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#138

Post by vba616 »

xwolfi wrote: post #30

I was scrolling down the list of claims and then reached "Introduction" lol I love short sellers, Citron did a little sting in my city, Hong Kong, trying to short Evergrande with an A to Z demonstration of how it was ponzinomics, to end up being sued by our regulator for stock manipulation and being condemned years later finally to not trade in HK for years. A little while later, Evergrande's Ponzi finally collapsed.…

>to end up being sued by our regulator for stock manipulation

It could be manipulation in principle, but the instances where regulators have been corrupted and use that as an excuse are really terrifying. See: Wirecard in Germany.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#139

Post by stephen_g »

themitigating wrote: post #134
stephen_g wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Our biggest problem in Queensland is that Labor aren't very good, but the opposition (LNP) is much worse and are basically just an absolute joke - they were a complete disaster last time they were in power (and voted out in a huge wipeout the very next election), have a lot of far-right crazies, are incompetent and extremely ideological. Minor parties like the Greens are getting more traction because of it, and…

What did they do that was worse?

They went on big firing sprees around the public service, just absolute slash and burn style, huge spending cuts to the budget, reduction in services, and were getting ready to privitise a lot of public assets that bring in a lot of revenue (things that have been privitised in other states and have turned out to be disasters there, gouging people for essential services, like the power transmission networks). They under-invested in health, public transport, etc.

They'd been voted in I think because there was desire for change, and very quickly the public sentiment changed. Kind of like "oh crap, not like this"... It's very unusual for a Government to only have one term but they were booted out decisively. Since then the party seems even less competent... So they haven't been able to make much of an impact in the last few elections.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#140

Post by 0xB31B1B »

skizm wrote: post #68

If these companies assets or stocks go to zero or are locked due to fraud or something that makes the actual public stocks untradable, how do you get out of a short position? Borrowing and selling the stock means you can’t get it back to return to the original owner, and buying put options means you can’t sell the stock to the contract holder. Do you have to get out before it gets completely vaporized?

It depends on the structure of the contract. There are a few famous cases of short positions being locked out of value for some arcane reasons.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-11/-go-to...

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