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How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

eaton-works.com

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Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#171
I don't get the value from preventing a customer from modding the device. Presumably, the customer gets more value out of the modded device, which means more sales to the device vendor.

The IBM PC was a runaway success because it was user moddable. IBM failed to recognize this with their follow-on PS/2, which was locked down. It flopped. DEC's Rainbow PC flopped because they tied it to proprietary floppy disks.

Chrysler was loved by hotrodders in the 60s and 70s because the company even published extensive manuals on how to hotrod them to various levels, and supplied the parts!

I put my money where my mouth is, the D language is 100% open source.

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to agree with you, were it not for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34504752 https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activat...

Without being deactivated these are effectively stolen devices. The sin here isn’t on apple, it’s on the previous owner failing to unlock the device. I’m all for this it it means my devices won’t be stolen.

Yes, but it locks out the third-party refurbished market. If a Macbook breaks and the owner chooses to replace instead of repair, there isn't a way to factory reset it. A repair shop has no choice but to scrap the computer even if it's fixable.

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#173

I don't get the value from preventing a customer from modding the device. Presumably, the customer gets more value out of the modded device, which means more sales to the device vendor. The IBM PC was a runaway success because it was user moddable. IBM failed to recognize this with their follow-on PS/2, which was locked down. It flopped. DEC's Rainbow PC flopped because they tied it to proprietary floppy disks. Chrys…

>the customer gets more value out of the modded device, which means more sales to the device vendor.

Not sure about the modern xbox, but a lot of game consoles have traditionally been sold at a loss with the expectation of making it up on game licensing fees.

Making more sales at a loss without a significant enough increase in licensing revenue equals a bigger loss. And that's before accounting for the higher support costs of people with incompatible 3rd-party hardware calling Xbox support.

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#174

I don't get the value from preventing a customer from modding the device. Presumably, the customer gets more value out of the modded device, which means more sales to the device vendor. The IBM PC was a runaway success because it was user moddable. IBM failed to recognize this with their follow-on PS/2, which was locked down. It flopped. DEC's Rainbow PC flopped because they tied it to proprietary floppy disks. Chrys…

[deleted]

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and many of these technologies are now showing up via Project Pluton. More awareness needs to be made of how this will have a devestating impact on end-user freedom. They're attacking the PC, one of the last holdouts of general-purpose computing freedom. Remote attestation will make it so you "can" technically run your own hardware and software (and that's what the FUD-spreaders will always say), but you'll be denied…

Not to mention that no design is absolutely safe, and if security enclaves like Pluton get exploited to run backdoor, it'll be a lot harder for end user to detect.

It's worth looking at the multi-year CHERI research project on capabilities, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30007474, which has influenced Arm security features and roadmaps. Pluton could be viewed as a stepping stone to CHERI. From a recent blog post by MS Research, https://saaramar.github.io/memory_safety_blogpost_2022/

> these tiny parts usually run with high privileges and dramatically impact the overall system. In such cases, MTE/CHERI play pretty nicely - they help ensure that whatever bugs we have in these areas are killed at their root cause (probabilistically/deterministically). This is exactly why MSR, MSRC and Azure Silicon pushed for this AMAZING project of CheriIoT ... scaling CHERI down to RISC-V32E, the smallest core RISC-V specification. I’m very excited about this project, and I hope once we will open-source the ISA and the prototype, more folks across the industry could join.

That is a direction that would benefit everyone: open silicon and open firmware for the most security sensitive components. It is technically possible and at least some humans in big companies understand the importance to future would-be-digital civilizations.

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without being deactivated these are effectively stolen devices. The sin here isn’t on apple, it’s on the previous owner failing to unlock the device. I’m all for this it it means my devices won’t be stolen.

Yes, but it locks out the third-party refurbished market. If a Macbook breaks and the owner chooses to replace instead of repair, there isn't a way to factory reset it. A repair shop has no choice but to scrap the computer even if it's fixable.

The activation lock can be removed remotely with iCloud credentials: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201441

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#177
post #166
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I don't even think there Are official Steam Deck sales numbers. The best I can find was that they shipped over 1 million last October, not sold. But that was actually not long after they BEGAN shipping units. Not only that, but we're comparing it to the Switch, which is one of THE best selling game consoles ever . However, in its first year, IIRC, it actually "only" sold around 10 million units. That suggests th…

The PS Vita is an apt point of comparison - a beautiful piece of hardware that performed fantastically (and in my opinion much more impressive for its time than the steam deck) - that is considered to have been a complete failure.

Steam Deck really is an interesting comparison. It must be frustrating that Valve releases Steam Deck to fanatical reception if you feel like PS Vita was a better product for it's time. Even though PS Vita may have been a great product, it's possibly one that simply was not at the right place or time. I really think that Sony needed to win, not just sell modestly.

A big and weird part of this is simply because Valve is different. Still a corporation, still flawed, but certainly, if nothing else, definitely different. They have an appeal almost reminiscent of how people once regarded Google a long time ago. They've gotten a solid reputation for playing the long game with respect to building their ecosystem, and in that regard, Deck feels like a product many years in the making: the Steam client and games library, Proton and DXVK, the overlay and other middleware libraries, the multiple iterations of SteamOS, and many more endeavors all came into the product that the Deck is today.

Meanwhile, PS Vita did not have the luxury of the depth of consumer goodwill that Valve has, even if Sony has many times the breadth of consumer goodwill; worse, it needed to bootstrap it's ecosystem, whereas Valve has committed to bringing it's entire existing ecosystem to Deck instead. Valve also had the luxury of not being a traditional video game console vendor, and thus I don't think it elicited as strong of a reaction in the "console wars" either: I do not think that people view it the same. And hell, I don't think Valve does either. It has an aggressive starting price, and thus definitely can compete, but it seems probably still profitable. At the higher end, it's priced more like a gaming laptop, and thus the enthusiast gear that you would expect. I think they landed themselves a nearly unloseable situation with Deck. Because it's basically just an extension of their existing Steam ecosystem, it's essentially a value-add at worst. I would bet it acts more complimentary to other consoles, and there are probably few Deck owners without at least one other game console.

As a competitor to Nintendo's gaming handhelds and as a successor to the PSP, it seems like consumers largely rejected the PS Vita. Maybe in an alternate universe where Sony took an entirely different approach to the ecosystem and marketing of the PS Vita, things could've gone very differently.

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#178
Eaton, I was a big admirer of yours back in the Xbox 360 modding scene, and envied your genius and dedication to things like FATXplorer and DevTool. We had common acquaintances (cas, teh1337) and I believe we may have worked together very briefly on a project at one point (I developed XPRC, which brought RPC and a whole host of new modding abilities to JTAG'd consoles). I'd love to get in touch and hear what you're working on now-a-days and see if there's anything we can collaborate on (perhaps a blog article?)!

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I hear about the XBox's platform security, I think back to this talk [1] about how Microsoft protected the XBox One. A lot of it boils down to clear requirements and good engineering, and many of these technologies are now showing up via Project Pluton. [1] https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/chen/

and many of these technologies are now showing up via Project Pluton. More awareness needs to be made of how this will have a devestating impact on end-user freedom. They're attacking the PC, one of the last holdouts of general-purpose computing freedom. Remote attestation will make it so you "can" technically run your own hardware and software (and that's what the FUD-spreaders will always say), but you'll be denied…

The PC will eventually lock up more. Free general-purpose computing will remain on things like Raspberry Pi (and many other variants). There will be Windows computers, like we now have Macs, and Windows-incapable computers to run Linux (or whatever else open OS).

Re: How the Xbox 360 knows if your hard drive is genuine

#180
post #178

Eaton, I was a big admirer of yours back in the Xbox 360 modding scene, and envied your genius and dedication to things like FATXplorer and DevTool. We had common acquaintances (cas, teh1337) and I believe we may have worked together very briefly on a project at one point (I developed XPRC, which brought RPC and a whole host of new modding abilities to JTAG'd consoles). I'd love to get in touch and hear what you're w…

Thank you for the kind words :D My contact info is here: https://eaton-works.com/contact/
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