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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

theintercept.com

321–330 of 410 posts

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#321
post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

Note that house them securely only means them from the outside. From the bit I know, threats from the inside are overlooked. I don’t know how private prisons avoid liability when someone is injured, raped or killed. Why isn’t it considered negligence on their end?

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#322
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about both prisons and jails. From the article: > The proposed changes follow a nationwide trend of prisons and jails moving to stop incarcerated people from receiving physical mail. Prisons in Pennsylvania stopped physical mail in 2018, and prisons in Massachusetts started sending incarcerated people photocopies of original letters. Last year, prisons in New Mexico and Florida adopted similar changes, and Texas…

Yeah, but WRT this horrendously egregious policy, I didn't (and won't) address facilities other than NYC jails, as that's most relevant to me . This article isn't about front line police, yet you keep bringing them up. Why is that? In fact, I didn't mention the police at all (although, as others have noted, corrections officers generally are sworn LEOs), so I don't know why you have such a hard on for cops[0]. No, no…

> This article isn't about front line police, yet you keep bringing them up. Why is that?

This is literally my point in this thread. The article is not about the police and I don't understand why people are steering the discussion that way.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#323
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police departments are often the same. I don't know understand why some people online seem to so often want to steer discussions towards how the police are so awful.

It seems pretty relevant here. Both prisons and the police are part of the government monopoly on violence.

“Government monopoly on violence” is a phrase that I see constantly see on the internet that makes less and less sense the more you think about. Of all the news I read of killings near where I live none are the government doing it, and certainly it’s a minority of homicides nationally done by active government employees. And outside the world of crime there’s plenty of violent sports, plenty of violent non-criminal activity happens. I’d bet most people I know have experienced non government violence.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#324
post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

> But we won't, because our society is largely based on Calvinist nonsense that says there are "bad people" and we should celebrate those people having bad things happen to them.

I'd argue it's just the opposite. If people believed Calvinism, then they would believe that all humanity has an innate capacity for evil and it's only circumstances that lead some people to become criminals and others judges. As I see it, the logical conclusion is that by changing people's circumstances we would be able to reform criminals.

However, I'm increasingly suspecting that many if not most people who profess to be Christians are actually just tribalists.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#325
post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

According to federal data the average annual cost per prisoner in federal prisons is about $115,000. Thought experiment: Imagine that instead of that, we identified people likely to become criminals, using all that new fangled crime prediction AI that police forces are so excited about. Then just given them say half that amount as UBI, so $50,000/year and say you can have this as long as you don't do crime. Peoples l…

You would get rid of a small percentage of crime. A lot of crime happens out of either cultural ideals, or inability to control emotions.

My opinion is that the money should be spent on labor camps, specifically towards guaranteeing good nutrition, secure housing, access to medicine, with oversight on a government level, but everyone is forced to work. You would solve for things like inner prison violence/drug trade, since people will be physically and mentally exhausted, and best of all, everyone finishing their sentences will have had a good number of years of blue collar work. If some dude spent 5 years every day welding up structures for solar panels, I guarantee you companies are gonna want to interview him to make use of his skills.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US has the largest number of incarnated adults in the developed world because our government and capitalism demands it be so No, US has the largest number of adults in prison because we have a very ideologically diverse population, as well as a semblance of personal freedom, which necessarily will result in more people committing crimes. Nothing to do with capitalism. In fact, a true capitalism-based solutions w…

I think you might want to research the penal systems of the US a bit more closely. More than one state essentially functions on convict labor.

Functions is a strong word. Yes, convict labor is cheap. But its availability is generally not manufactured. Im sure that there are some sociopathic people that would absolutely love the idea of putting more people in prison to take advantage of cheap labor, but the system we live is pretty robust to that kind of bullshit, with a few exceptions of course.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals". [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...

Would be interesting to look at recidivism and crime rate in Japan or Oman ?

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#328
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One essay that touches briefly on this is Million Dollar Murray [0], about a homeless man and how the unwillingness of society to deal with his homelessness cost the taxpayers of Reno more than a million dollars. One of the points in the essay was that many difficult problems had "power law" distributions [1] (where the action is all at one extreme). And one successful program for treating homelessness handed out key…

>The "moral hazard" involved offends lots of people: "I pay my rent! Why should some one/freeloader/whatever get a free place to live when I have to pay?" Outrage seems to be the driving force in media these days. Which is why nothing will change. I find it strange that you're just shrugging off the objections as "outrage", rather than trying to engage/address them in any serious way. I think the concept of fairness,…

>I find it strange that you're just shrugging off the objections as "outrage", rather than trying to engage/address them in any serious way. I think the concept of fairness, and the fact that people might be incentivized to freeload are legitimate concerns. You might not think they're valid, but if you want their tax dollars to fund the social programs you want, it seems entirely reasonable that their concerns be addressed.

Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense without that sense of outrage. Especially if you make the ridiculous economic argument you're making.

Firstly, there are serious housing shortages in many places in the US, driving up prices and making housing unaffordable for many.

What's more, it's really hard to hold a job when you have no place to shower or store your stuff (I know this from personal experience), so homeless folks could be contributing to society (BTW, the data says that less than 10% of homeless folks have drug abuse/serious mental illness issues).

As such, providing most homeless folks with real housing (as compared with "shelters" which are dangerous and often unsanitary) can boost the economy by giving more folks the opportunity to work, make a living and contribute to the community/society.

It's really very simple. As James Ridgeway[1] pointed out back in 1988 or so (I've searched and searched for the Village Voice article over the years, but haven't been able to find it online) when he asked (then answered his own question):

"What do homeless people want?"

The answer being, "homes, mostly."

This is not a new issue, nor is it particularly complicated.

The vast majority of homeless people are willing and able to support themselves, but circumstance (medical bills, lawsuits, layoffs death of a partner/fellow breadwinner) has taken away their ability to afford rent. And given that a majority of Americans[2] (~60%) can't come up with $1,000 for an emergency expense should give you some pause.

Spending some money to get folks to a place where they can once again support themselves and their children (yes, I'm going with the "think of the children" trope, although in this case it seems useful/relevant), so they can earn a living in excess of that expenditure helps the homeless people, the economy where that person resides and the community in which they live.

And since "housing" people in shelters is more expensive[0] than putting these unfortunate folks in apartments, that's another strong reason to find permanent housing for homeless folks.

tl;dr: Since the economics of homelessness and our response to it broadly calls out for paying (at least until folks are able to pay themselves) rent on permanent housing rather than the half-assed measures that cost more, your argument about "fairness" falls really flat.

[0] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/homeless-shelters-more-ex_n_5...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ridgeway

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...

Edit: Fixed link references.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#329
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are stating private jails don't control the government. You're right, the opposite is true: government officials control private jails, which means delivering inmates and redirecting profits ... Last big scandal about large scale wrongful imprisonment - of children, no less - the people profiting from this were: 1) Directly profiting * the District Attorney * 2 judges * the director of ... of the Juvenile Probati…

> You are stating private jails don't control the government. You're right, the opposite is true: government officials control private jails, which means delivering inmates and redirecting profits ... > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal This gets brought up all the time as evidence of something systemic, but the linked article only mentions two judges convicted. Is there any evidence this is widespr…

This scandal was widespread. A LOT of people could have put a stop to it, and all but 2 were government officials. A LOT of people were warned this was happening, and sometimes went so far as to abuse it (ie. schools would threaten kids). The district attorney apologized regularly to victims.

But yeah, this sort of thing is widespread.

https://apnews.com/article/prisons-us-department-of-justice-...

https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/final-defendants-includin...

https://scheerpost.com/2022/01/23/the-scandal-of-u-s-prisons...

https://www.fairobserver.com/region/north_america/prison-ame...

But all of the above is employees violating the law. Worse is the justice system itself abusing the law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder (the state has a duty to prosecute. This is NOT what lawmakers mean by that, yet nobody ever sees any consequences). More general this is an example of: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/pie2022_jail_churn.html

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#330
post #232
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some police officers have done bad things all police officers are bad The flaw here is that there are countless examples of one police officer doing something terrible, and an entire department rallying around them in support. Or the opposite - like Adrian Schoolcraft attempting to blow the whistle, and being terrorized by the NYPD as a result. The police generally do suck, and in the US at least they cost a lot of…

You've still said nothing about why this thread should be about police departments rather than mail scanning.

Yes I did, in fact you know this because you even quoted me saying why I thought this was acceptable and on-topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34507130
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