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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

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Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#301

Post by nicolas_t »

_trampeltier wrote: post #167
rahimnathwani wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this 1/3 of the current prison population, or is it 1/3 of prison sentences handout in a certain period? I could believe the latter. But I assume that sentences for fare evasion are shorter than for other types of theft, or more serious things like murder?

Sadly population

I'd want to see a citation on that, only thing I could find so far is this quote "Peter Biesenbach, justice minister in Germany's most populous state North Rhine-Westphalia, said that over one-in-ten verdicts handed down in his state dealt with fare-dodgers."

I can't imagine that 1 in ten verdicts for fare dodging would result in one third of the prison population being fare dodgers.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#302

Post by anigbrowl »

KMag wrote: post #166
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

I'm not a theologian, but my understanding is that 5-point Calvinism actually claims all people are bad (total depravity of Man) and that Christians shouldn't think they're better than other people, since it's not the person's choice if they believe in God or not (irresistible grace). Though, maybe in practice Calvinism deviates from theory.

Indeed so, but by the same logic it's not the person's choice to be hypocritical while reaping the mundane rewards of apparent piety.

Philosopher Slavoj Zižek argues that it is religion/ideology that allows for the commission of atrocities, by ascribing cosmic importance to otherwise banal conflicts over resources and prior injuries.

In nature, predatory animals might hunt prey to extinction and then die off themselves. But this is more likely to happen in theoretical models or very isolated/extreme environments with an unusually narrow 'fault tolerance. In more complex environments, adversarial populations wax and wane chaotically, selection pressure yield evolutionary innovations and arms races that allow breakouts from local minima, and so on.

A History of Warfare by John Keegan is a good introduction (with an excellent bibliography) to the anthropology of warfare, and has a particularly good treatment of initially adaptive social mores can end in catastrophe when they bump into resource limits or experience an external shock. Keegan emphasizes the role of technologies (both physical and social) which confer overwhelming advantages in conflict, which may or may not be sustainable. For example, pastoral herding/hunting practices developed on the large scale of the Mongolian steppe allowed nomadic hordes under leaders like Genghis Khan to overwhelm less dynamic agricultural societies. But lacking deep administrative foundations (quite literally, due to a lack of construction materials and incentives) they were unable to lock in their massive tactical advantages over a longer timescale.

War by Azar Gat has a deeper exploration of competition between socio-cultural systems and incorporates fresher scholarship, but at the price of being somewhat more tendentious and a much less engaging read.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#303

Post by askvictor »

SideQuark wrote: post #285
squokko wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals". [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...

45% after 5 years hardly seems low; it's pretty similar to other countries in that list. The short-term recidivism is pretty low (though there isn't that level of data for most countries listed).

The source publication concludes "that international comparisons are currently not valid" due to inconsistencies between countries' data and lack of transparency.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278714801_A_Systema...

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#304

Post by ROTMetro »

notch656c wrote: post #171
mabbo wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what if the ex-con's former prison had a bond on them- if this person ends up committing a crime against your business, you get the full costs covered, less 10%. The prison would be incentivized to do this so as to help prevent recidivism. They'd also be incentivized to get that person the help they need so they don't commit crimes and can do the job too.

The reason I would be hesitant to hire the ex-con is not because they're bad. OR I think they're going to be bad to me and thus I need extra insurance or whatever. The reason I wouldn't hire them is because the system salivates to put those people back in the system, and I prefer to hire someone less likely to get pulled into the abyss at any random moment and cause me to lose out on my trained workforce. Their PO, a…

I live in so much fear of technical violations it isn't even funny. I especially agree on the police cars having automatic plate readers.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#305

Post by ActorNightly »

jeffwask wrote: post #110
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

Victim isn't the right word because none of it is accidental. It's intentional design dating all the way back to 13th amendment which states. "The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. " My brother in law was released recently from 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense…

>The US has the largest number of incarnated adults in the developed world because our government and capitalism demands it be so

No, US has the largest number of adults in prison because we have a very ideologically diverse population, as well as a semblance of personal freedom, which necessarily will result in more people committing crimes. Nothing to do with capitalism. In fact, a true capitalism-based solutions would actually be organized forced labor camps - instead of sitting in cells prisoners would be forced to work, and have access to food and medicine to continue to optimize their productivity.

Also, as an aside

>Until I was exposed to it in this manner, I would have been a "who cares do the crime pay the price" but that price extends so far, impacts everyone in a prisoners family even if they did no crime, and sets them up for failure when reentering the world.

If you hold a position but change this solely because of a personal experience, you don't actually believe in either side of the issue, you just go with what feels right.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#306

Post by anigbrowl »

plorg wrote: post #225
KMag wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a theologian, but my understanding is that 5-point Calvinism actually claims all people are bad (total depravity of Man) and that Christians shouldn't think they're better than other people, since it's not the person's choice if they believe in God or not (irresistible grace). Though, maybe in practice Calvinism deviates from theory.

All 5 points are just different facets of the belief in predestination - that we are ultimately incapable of changing our moral standing, our fate, that only God can do that for us. In practice it means that there are an elect few who are capable of good (and in my educational experience, are tasked with "building the kingdom of God", aka running things) and everyone else deserves what is coming to them even if they…

my experience (30+ years of living in small Calvinist communities

Disappointing to see your unusually extensive first-hand experience downvoted to the bottom of this sub-thread.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#307

Post by nobody9999 »

D13Fd wrote: post #194
nobody9999 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The article is about prison mail. It has nothing to do with police officers and does not mention the "government monopoly on violence." No. The article is about jail mail. While "prison" and "jail" are often used interchangeably, they are not (at least in the US) the same thing. Jails are for folks being detained before trial (i.e., they are innocent as they haven't been proven/pled guilty) or incarcerated for minor…

It's about both prisons and jails. From the article: > The proposed changes follow a nationwide trend of prisons and jails moving to stop incarcerated people from receiving physical mail. Prisons in Pennsylvania stopped physical mail in 2018, and prisons in Massachusetts started sending incarcerated people photocopies of original letters. Last year, prisons in New Mexico and Florida adopted similar changes, and Texas…

Yeah, but WRT this horrendously egregious policy, I didn't (and won't) address facilities other than NYC jails, as that's most relevant to me.

This article isn't about front line police, yet you keep bringing them up. Why is that?

In fact, I didn't mention the police at all (although, as others have noted, corrections officers generally are sworn LEOs), so I don't know why you have such a hard on for cops[0].

No, not all cops are sadistic, power-drunk scumbags. But one is too many. cf. Daniel Pantaleo[1], Derek Chauvin[2] or Joseph Franco[3]. There are hundreds more that we know about. Which leaves many, many more we don't know about.

Why don't you invite some of these folks over for dinner so you can tell them how much you love and respect them? Well not Chauvin, as he's in prison, but you better hurry because Mr. Franco will be soon too.

[0]When I was a kid, it was clear that the police were just the biggest and best armed gang -- with qualified immunity -- in NYC. And since I saw and experienced that dynamic a bunch of times over the years, the police themselves proved that to be true. Over and over again. There have been a few positive changes over the last decade or so, but not nearly enough. Certainly not enough to change my view of the police.

[1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-put-eric-garner-letha...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Chauvin

[3] https://abc7ny.com/joseph-franco-nypd-detective-convictions-...

Edit: Used "jail" when "prison" was the appropriate term. Fixed.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#308

Post by blululu »

SideQuark wrote: post #285
squokko wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals". [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...

Interesting - from this data it does appear that US is on the lower end of the spectrum. I will say that this dataset is very hard to parse - a lot of information and very little is apples to apples in a simple ranked chart. Also some countries (Denmark for instance) have fluctuated wildly in a span of ~10 years, which suggests that what is treated as a crime might be a driving variable here. I would be really curious to see a more detailed analysis of this data that segments the population by offender class (if you lump in non-violent and violent offenders I would imagine that you are making more of a commentary of the relative enforcement of these respective crimes).

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#309

Post by MSFT_Edging »

LatteLazy wrote: post #130
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #6

I'm sure reducing prisoner contact with loved ones will surely reduce crime! /s

I mean, to be cynical: those friends and family didn't stop them committing (serious) crimes in the first place. Maybe prison SHOULD be time for a clean break with bad influences...

So you lock them in with all the other bad influences?

American prisons are in no way a "clean break with bad influences". The entire system is basically set up how it'd be if you asked someone to make sure recidivism was high as possible. Long harsh sentences for non-violent crime, low contact with the outside, no real job training, roadblocks for jobs for ex-cons on the outside, stuck with a ton of debt in court fees on release plus a parole system designed to put people back in jail.

To reduce crime you need to either support a community or create opportunity. Instead we starve communities to fund putting people in jail and block them from opportunities once they make it outside.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#310

Post by anigbrowl »

ActorNightly wrote: post #305
jeffwask wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim isn't the right word because none of it is accidental. It's intentional design dating all the way back to 13th amendment which states. "The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. " My brother in law was released recently from 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense…

>The US has the largest number of incarnated adults in the developed world because our government and capitalism demands it be so No, US has the largest number of adults in prison because we have a very ideologically diverse population, as well as a semblance of personal freedom, which necessarily will result in more people committing crimes. Nothing to do with capitalism. In fact, a true capitalism-based solutions w…

I think you might want to research the penal systems of the US a bit more closely. More than one state essentially functions on convict labor.
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