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Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

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Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#21

Post by RajT88 »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #18

Chloroform is great for extractions (if you don't care about the environment) because it sinks to the bottom of a sep funnel, but the thing about it being a knockout gas or sleep aid is complete BS. Based on an unpublished study of about 4 degenerate chemistry undergrads: - It PROBABLY takes several minutes of inhalation through a saturated rag to induce full loss of consciousness, although shorter times do produce n…

It could well be a similar phenomenon to how silencers on firearms absolutely do not make a gun sound like it sounds in the movies, but because it's become an established (and convenient) film trope, it persists in film.

Similarly - films depicting kidnapping people using chloroform as an instant knockout drug.

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#22

Post by gus_massa »

pazimzadeh wrote: post #4

can't you just mix bleach with ethanol?

You should ask a real Chemistry [1], but in case there is none nearby

Organic reactions are a mess, and there are a lot of side reactions.

My guess is that mixing ethanol and bleach produce a mix of chloroform and other stuff.

Ethanol is

    H H
    | |
  H-C-C-O-H
    | |
    H H
and my guess is that the mix has a lot of the thing you get replacing the lash Hydrogen with Chloride

    H H
    | |
  H-C-C-O-Cl
    | |
    H H
Acetone has no -O-H so you probably don't get too much stuff like that.

[1] I only have a specialization in Chemistry Secondary School, it's somewhat similar to 1 or 2 years of a Chemistry Major (of 5 years). I know enough to understand the explanation in the video, but not enough to write them. [I've used similar equipment for other experiments a long time ago. For example, the connector to the water at the top of the condenser, should it be pointing up instead of pointing to one side?]

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#23

Post by kortex »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #18

Chloroform is great for extractions (if you don't care about the environment) because it sinks to the bottom of a sep funnel, but the thing about it being a knockout gas or sleep aid is complete BS. Based on an unpublished study of about 4 degenerate chemistry undergrads: - It PROBABLY takes several minutes of inhalation through a saturated rag to induce full loss of consciousness, although shorter times do produce n…

> Join us for our continued lecture series, covering topics such as

Please share/blog these! I too have several degenerate chemistry undergrad stories.

> The poor efficacy of DMSO in assisting drug translocation through skin

Yep. During one particularly sleep-deprived finals week, and after recently learning about DMSO's transdermal transportation abilities, my friend and I tried making caffeine skin patches. It worked...vaguely increasing alertness. However, it itched and burned worse than just about anything I've ever experienced.

Also I can concur that chloroform isn't some instant knock-out juice. But one time, a lab mate and I were running massive columns and had accumulated several hundred liters of DCM (dichloromethane) fractions in flasks (yes, it was a loong day). Despite the walk-in hoods running at full bore, by the end of the day, coworker and I were loopy, giggly idiots. Was it above OSHA PEL? Possibly, but probably not. I think the disinhibition was a combination of energy drinks, fatigue+boredom of running hundreds of fractions, and suggestibility, as much as it was the fumes. But my lab manager did walk in at one point and immediately recoiled from the fumes (which we were nose-deaf to at that point).

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#24

Post by occamrazor »

RajT88 wrote: post #21
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #18

Chloroform is great for extractions (if you don't care about the environment) because it sinks to the bottom of a sep funnel, but the thing about it being a knockout gas or sleep aid is complete BS. Based on an unpublished study of about 4 degenerate chemistry undergrads: - It PROBABLY takes several minutes of inhalation through a saturated rag to induce full loss of consciousness, although shorter times do produce n…

It could well be a similar phenomenon to how silencers on firearms absolutely do not make a gun sound like it sounds in the movies, but because it's become an established (and convenient) film trope, it persists in film. Similarly - films depicting kidnapping people using chloroform as an instant knockout drug.

I remember reading (can’t find the source anymore) that ether would work as knock-out drug, and that indeed it was used as a plot device in crime books as chloroform is used in movies today. The problem is that ether can be highly toxic at relatively low dosage, and then it was replaced by chloroform in fiction to avoid giving dangerous ideas to people.

Is there any truth behind this theory?

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#25

Post by at-fates-hands »

occamrazor wrote: post #24
RajT88 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could well be a similar phenomenon to how silencers on firearms absolutely do not make a gun sound like it sounds in the movies, but because it's become an established (and convenient) film trope, it persists in film. Similarly - films depicting kidnapping people using chloroform as an instant knockout drug.

I remember reading (can’t find the source anymore) that ether would work as knock-out drug, and that indeed it was used as a plot device in crime books as chloroform is used in movies today. The problem is that ether can be highly toxic at relatively low dosage, and then it was replaced by chloroform in fiction to avoid giving dangerous ideas to people. Is there any truth behind this theory?

Just some anecdotal evidence to support what you're saying.

When I was in college and a freshman, I was told the urban legend about the "ether bunny". The story about a freshman who finds out his roommate has been drugging and having sex with him using ether.

I wasn't very knowledgeable about these stories or urban legends in general so when I was home for Christmas vacation, I told my Dad about it, and he started laughing and said it was an old college urban legend but when he was told it (in the 1960's) as a freshman they used chloroform instead of ether. He mentioned some other details about the story that were changed due to the times, but that was one point that was clearly changed over time, possibly for the same reason.

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#27

Post by Apocryphon »

ravenstine wrote: post #6

I decided to open the Wikipedia page for Chloroform while this video played and thought it was interesting that the idea that criminals can immediately knock someone out with a chloroform soaked rag is really a work of fiction. Not that it couldn't be done, but that it would probably take minutes and not just a few seconds.

Now I'm wondering if the fictional trope effect can be reversed by the trope of using smelling salts to rouse a fainted person.

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#28

Post by fsckboy »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #10
ravenstine wrote: post #6

I decided to open the Wikipedia page for Chloroform while this video played and thought it was interesting that the idea that criminals can immediately knock someone out with a chloroform soaked rag is really a work of fiction. Not that it couldn't be done, but that it would probably take minutes and not just a few seconds.

There's a historical crime fiction series that intertwines the real history and discovery of Choloroform, gynecology etc. with crime: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38114460-the-way-of-all-... The author "Ambrose Parry" is a pseudonym for the combined talents of a crime writer and his wife, who is an anaesthetist with a master's degree in the History of Medicine

>intertwines the real history and discovery of Choloroform, gynecology etc. with crime

"phrasing!" - Archer

when you juxtapose chloroform, gynecology, and crime like that, are you suggesting that the real history of chloroform was as a date rape drug, but I need to read a fictional crime series to learn about it? As in the modern day, new technology is first adopted by the sex (we call it porn) trade, I guess I wouldn't be shocked shocked, but is this the truth?

Re: Making chloroform so I can sleep better at night [video]

#29

Post by kortex »

occamrazor wrote: post #24
RajT88 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could well be a similar phenomenon to how silencers on firearms absolutely do not make a gun sound like it sounds in the movies, but because it's become an established (and convenient) film trope, it persists in film. Similarly - films depicting kidnapping people using chloroform as an instant knockout drug.

I remember reading (can’t find the source anymore) that ether would work as knock-out drug, and that indeed it was used as a plot device in crime books as chloroform is used in movies today. The problem is that ether can be highly toxic at relatively low dosage, and then it was replaced by chloroform in fiction to avoid giving dangerous ideas to people. Is there any truth behind this theory?

Ether and chloroform both have relatively narrow therapeutic windows - the toxic dose is very close to the minimum active dose. But they were one of the few true anaesthetics at the time (late 1800s). Alcohol was also used for surgery but it's slower and inhibits clotting. In fact often it'd be a combination of all three, known as ACE [1]. This worked okay-ish, as the GABA-ergic synergy was able to suppress consciousness and memory without poisoning the patient's heart or liver (as) severely.

The other big issue was flammability.

Ether still takes enough time to reduce consciousness that you have a good minute or two (minimum) of struggle. It's not "towel over face, muffled screaming, then sleepytime". But an attacker with advantage of surprise and a decent grapple could usually get the target dosed before they could break free.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACE_mixture

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