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NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

theintercept.com

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Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#131

Post by smcl »

D13Fd wrote: post #117
smcl wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the big deal? People on HN explore adjacent topics quite frequently, and the idea that both police and prisons exist to exert power over (and frequently choose to exercise violence upon) the population is a very common and uncontroversial feeling. Not trying to "out" you here, just trying to understand why you're fighting so hard on their behalf, but do you maybe have a friend or relative that works in the pol…

> What's the big deal? People on HN explore adjacent topics quite frequently, and the idea that both police and prisons exist to exert power over (and frequently choose to exercise violence upon) the population is a very common and uncontroversial feeling. It's popular right now to bash the police as corrupt and as not having people's best interest at heart. But the fact is that those are only some of the police. And…

> some police officers have done bad things all police officers are bad

The flaw here is that there are countless examples of one police officer doing something terrible, and an entire department rallying around them in support. Or the opposite - like Adrian Schoolcraft attempting to blow the whistle, and being terrorized by the NYPD as a result.

The police generally do suck, and in the US at least they cost a lot of money and do little good while also doing some pretty shitty things and getting away with it. That's going to lead a lot of people to hate them for life, and it would take a herculean effort to reverse that. This is why I wondered if there's maybe a family/friend connection, because while I’m not exactly screaming for the abolishment of the Police altogether, I do think it's sort of absurd to come out swinging in defence the police as the exist in many countries

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#132

Post by HideousKojima »

jMyles wrote: post #25
warning26 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure — but you’re not in prison. The kinds of people in there are probably receiving smuggled goods or other illicit materials, not pleasant drawings from kids.

What a ridiculous presumption. Is there anything resembling evidence that the current system of incarceration selects the "kinds of people" to whom you refer, rather than arbitrarily from the population, weighted by money and melanin?

>Is there anything resembling evidence that the current system of incarceration selects the "kinds of people" to whom you refer

The National Crime Victimization Survey?

I mean people always try and say that the FBI crime stats are wrong/falsified/whatever but I rarely if ever see any attempts to debunk the NCVS which corroborates the FBI crime numbers.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#133

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

D13Fd wrote: post #124
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a huge similarity: they are given power over people and routinely use this power to harm, rather than help heal. Our 4-yr old has police trauma from police coming to bother us about them playing outside naked because traumatized older people ignorant of other cultures won't stop calling them. Instead of visiting those people, they harass a child and parents for something that's legal. The child has nightmare of p…

> And a huge similarity: they are given power over people and routinely use this power to harm, rather than help heal. Our 4-yr old has police trauma from police coming to bother us about them playing outside naked That's horrible and I'm really sorry to hear it. I've let our daughter play outside naked and I'd be absolutely livid if law enforcement bothered us about it. But that still has nothing to do with jails sc…

It's literally about having power over people, which is coming through the monopoly on violence, which is being exercised by scanning mail.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#134

Post by JumpCrisscross »

prepend wrote: post #120
jeffwask wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim isn't the right word because none of it is accidental. It's intentional design dating all the way back to 13th amendment which states. "The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. " My brother in law was released recently from 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense…

> 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense, no one was injured, and he profited a grand total of $35,000. No one was harmed. But the crime involved threat of death. So threatening to kill at least one person is a pretty serious crime. It’s good that no one was killed, but definitely the intent to kill for personal gain was part of the reason for such a lengthy sente…

Have to agree. We punish violent crime and corruption lightly; nonviolent crime inhumanely unforgivingly. If there was no violence, threat of violence, fraud or corruption, the limit should be two years. If there was, the minimum should be much higher.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#135

Post by etna_ramequin »

explorigin wrote: post #100
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

[flagged]

Yes, please. I’m pretty sure Calvinism says that everybody is corrupted by sin (not just prisoners) and that everybody is in need of God’s grace. There’s certainly nothing about celebrating when something bad happens to somebody.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#136

Post by danuker »

D13Fd wrote: post #69
BigRedDog1669 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty relevant here. Both prisons and the police are part of the government monopoly on violence.

The article is about prison mail. It has nothing to do with police officers and does not mention the "government monopoly on violence."

Digitized mail is one more straw on the camel's back. It is an example of the deeper issue: the prison-industrial complex going backwards on rehabilitation, because it is following the bad incentives written into law.

Meanwhile, in Norway, the incarceration rate is 10x lower, while the 2-year recidivism is about 20% instead of the US's 50-60% [1].

[1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20100509171347/http://www.time.c...

Here's an idea: pay prisons a meaningful amount when people coming out of them stay out and/or get jobs. For example, a bonus each year for five years.

Another idea: penalize them for every death or recidivism.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#137

Post by wstuartcl »

prepend wrote: post #120
jeffwask wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim isn't the right word because none of it is accidental. It's intentional design dating all the way back to 13th amendment which states. "The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. " My brother in law was released recently from 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense…

> 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense, no one was injured, and he profited a grand total of $35,000. No one was harmed. But the crime involved threat of death. So threatening to kill at least one person is a pretty serious crime. It’s good that no one was killed, but definitely the intent to kill for personal gain was part of the reason for such a lengthy sente…

Lol yeah, armed robbery is effectively the charge for someone that was totally willing to kill while robbing but due to circumstances did not need to. That should not be considered a light crime.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#138

Post by r053bud »

epicureanideal wrote: post #8

Somehow the left has become incredibly radical about every other issue, but isn't dealing with the basics like this, which have been discussed for many decades and most of the public would support reforming?

The democrats make just as much money on private prisons and defense contracts as the rest of them. It’s their business!

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#139

Post by jeffwask »

prepend wrote: post #120
jeffwask wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim isn't the right word because none of it is accidental. It's intentional design dating all the way back to 13th amendment which states. "The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. " My brother in law was released recently from 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense…

> 12+ years of incarceration in the federal system. His crime was armed robbery, first offense, no one was injured, and he profited a grand total of $35,000. No one was harmed. But the crime involved threat of death. So threatening to kill at least one person is a pretty serious crime. It’s good that no one was killed, but definitely the intent to kill for personal gain was part of the reason for such a lengthy sente…

I fully agree he earned punishment and it was a serious crime. (he says the gun was never loaded but that's neither here nor there). My question is the scope and breadth of the punishment and whether the system is about restitution and rehabilitation or pure punitive action. How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from when they went in. Luckily, my brother in law has us to support him. Many don't have that option.

Is 12 years being enslaved for $1.25 fitting with another 3 on probation and in halfway houses? I don't believe it is especially when watching white collar folks steal millions, do infinitely more damage, and be released in 1/3 the time to pick up where they left off.

Ultimately, being forced into slave labor and having to pay hundreds per a month to talk to family despite research showing it's one of the best ways to drive good behavior and rehabilitation in prisoners, is cruel and unusual punishment even if the crime committed means the person is never getting out.

Even if we agree on the length of sentence, for someone who did work the entirety of their 12 year sentence, in roles that would have paid $50-70K a year to emerge still owing restitution on a paltry debt of less than a new car, is a travesty.

Re: NYC jails want to ban physical mail, then privatize scanning of digital versions

#140

Post by darkarmani »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #112
mabbo wrote: post #81

I feel like the prison system is the victim of perverse incentives. The goal given to them is "house this person securely for a specific length of time at the lowest cost possible ". They are rewarded for cutting costs. But the total cost we pay is the cost to imprison this person the second and third time when they re-offend. It's the policing costs when they're homeless because they can't find housing or get a job.…

Even though I'm not a fan of private prisons, I wonder what would happen if they had a contract that gave bonuses for every year a former inmate stayed out of jail? Maybe that's already been tried.

Evasion training. How to stay out of jail (without changing your life).
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