Live data from Hacker News

The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

solipsys.co.uk

111–116 of 116 posts

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#111
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always been my struggle with all of this "infinity" maths. Infinity/Infinity is anything you like and many things you don't and these things always seem to boil down to dividing by infinity. Visit each room in the hotel in turn, each one for half the total time spent going to and visiting the last. Without explanation of why we can divide infinity by infinity when we want to and not get total garbage. Banach…

The breakthrough for me was when someone described what it means for two sets of things to be the same size. This is super basic, because innumerate shepherds can use it to count sheep. As your sheep go out in the morning, for each sheep, take a small rock from a pile and put it in a bag. When the sheep come back in, take a small rock from your bag and put it back on the pile. Any rocks left in your bag at the end of…

> "And that's how you can make an infinite amount of space in your infinite-but-full hotel."

If you re-frame that as an inexhaustible resource than you can make any amount of space in it because by definition it is inexhaustible.

> "infinite-but-full..."

"If it were already full then..." It can't be full. By definition it is inexhaustible.

"but we have an infinite supply of hotel guests." So by definition we can't house them all because the supply cannot be exhausted.

"We fill this inexhaustible space with an inexhaustible quantity of stack-able objects..." It seems as nuts as saying "We apply this irresistible force to this immovable object.." The existence of one implies the other _cannot_ exist.

Pick one, reason with it. Include a second in your reasoning and... No.

A one to one mapping between two resources that we define to be inexhaustible boils down to take infinity and divide it by infinity. How can it be anything else? So yes you can get 2, or 10, or pi, or literally anything at all. Infinity - infinity is no better, division is repeated subtraction so you still get "Gerald" as the answer.

Sure two infinite things are, by some view of it, "The same size" where that size makes them not comparable. The set of points contained in a sphere in my hand has the "same size" as the set of points in the sphere we call the earth which is the same as the set of points in the universe. But so what? How does this tell us anything? We divided by infinity to define what a point is and there you have to stop or you get nonsense, even if it is convenient nonsense I would hesitate to build my house there. Maybe it doesn't make any sense to talk about size when it isn't finite. Maybe we can only really reason about it using limits for the same reason we note dividing by zero makes no sense in any way that is really useful?

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#112
post #74
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...we have the idea that the unit cube [0,1]³ should have a finite volume of exactly 1... >...even though it contains infinitely many points. There is the division by infinity. Cut the volume in half. Still has infinite points. infinity/2 = infinity. 1 = 1/2, or 1=2 if you can cancel those. Any set of points is some number of points 1,2, ..infinity. Points are infinitely small (division by infinity) so you'd have to…

Yes, I see your point (no pun intended), but I would still maintain that this issue didn't necessarily bother mathematicians in the days before formalized set theory. The issue you mention is a reason that any definition of volume should not be based only on set cardinality, since there are those one-to-one correspondences with proper subsets (for infinite sets of points), yet volume should not be preserved by cuttin…

>even though |X|=|Y| ...

Yeah for me it simply doesn't. It isn't false, it just doesn't even make sense.

Define X and Y as you did but make one of the segments joined to make Y /be/ X.

Now if it is ever meaningful to have a one to one correspondence when infinity is lurking about surely the points on X correspond exactly, one to one, each with itself. Once all the points of X are accounted for, clearly half of Y remains, there is no other way. There is simply no point you can select in X that is free to correspond to the second half of Y if you select corresponding to itself in preference. You can never, ever select a point corresponding to the second half of Y if you admit preference to corresponding to itself in selection.

But X has an inexhaustible number of points to chose from by definition and so does Y. So if you start picking points at random from Y and matching them up to a previously unused point from X you can do that forever and never exhaust either of the sets of points. Thus X and Y correspond one to one and no points remain of either X or Y. And there are the same number of integers as there are integers that are even.

1=2 QED The walls are different measured heights but that doesn't matter because we've proved it. Yeah ok, but maybe it does to the poor sap who needs a useful roof?

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#113
post #112
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I see your point (no pun intended), but I would still maintain that this issue didn't necessarily bother mathematicians in the days before formalized set theory. The issue you mention is a reason that any definition of volume should not be based only on set cardinality, since there are those one-to-one correspondences with proper subsets (for infinite sets of points), yet volume should not be preserved by cuttin…

>even though |X|=|Y| ... Yeah for me it simply doesn't. It isn't false, it just doesn't even make sense. Define X and Y as you did but make one of the segments joined to make Y /be/ X. Now if it is ever meaningful to have a one to one correspondence when infinity is lurking about surely the points on X correspond exactly, one to one, each with itself. Once all the points of X are accounted for, clearly half of Y rema…

In that case, I would say you're a finitist (which, as the name seems to suggest, is fine).

The set theory approach gives seemingly clear answers to all of these questions by talking about domains and ranges of functions, rather than talking about what is or isn't an "inexhaustible number". There are potentially different correspondences available, represented by different functions; some possible correspondences may follow the "if you select corresponding to itself in preference" pattern, while others don't. = and ≤ for cardinalities are defined using existence of certain functions between sets.

However, you don't have to believe that any infinite sets exist or that we should be allowed to quantify over them, or that we should attempt to define cardinality for infinite sets at all. Still, as Dana Scott said in a related context, "if you want more, you have to assume more".

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#114
post #3

As the author points out that Banach-Tarski theorem is an example of hard-to-accept result that comes out of the easy-to-accept axiom of choice. There is a popular quote that related to this: > The axiom of choice is obviously true, the well-ordering principle obviously false, and who can tell about Zorn's lemma? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice Axiom of choice, the well-ordering principle and Zorn'…

The Axiom of choice has never felt completely self-evident to me. E.g.: what if you have sets where the elements are non-computable? How do you "choose" objects that cannot even be named ? Something like: "the set of all programs that cannot be proven to halt" and the like can be used to create pathological sets where the set itself obviously exists, but you cannot name any of the members. Actually, an ever better ex…

It sounds like you're adding an additional constraint though. By requesting all the members of each set to be able to be named, it seems like you're restricting the sets to be countable.

> E.g.: what if you have sets where the elements are non-computable?

That includes the unmodified real numbers.

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#115
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The breakthrough for me was when someone described what it means for two sets of things to be the same size. This is super basic, because innumerate shepherds can use it to count sheep. As your sheep go out in the morning, for each sheep, take a small rock from a pile and put it in a bag. When the sheep come back in, take a small rock from your bag and put it back on the pile. Any rocks left in your bag at the end of…

> "And that's how you can make an infinite amount of space in your infinite-but-full hotel." If you re-frame that as an inexhaustible resource than you can make any amount of space in it because by definition it is inexhaustible. > "infinite-but-full..." "If it were already full then..." It can't be full. By definition it is inexhaustible. "but we have an infinite supply of hotel guests." So by definition we can't ho…

If it helps, don't think about operations on infinite sets as "things that are true (or false)". Rather, think about it as "an abstract model with certain rules, that can produce interesting results if applied in careful ways."

Like √-1. Does that exist? Well, not really. But if we make up a pretend number i that we say is equal to √-1, we can perform interesting mathematical operations on it that can still produce useful results in the real world. But only if we follow a given set of rules carefully and consistently.

"All models are wrong, but some models are useful."

Infinity isn't real - at least, not in our universe. It certainly isn't a number. But it's a concept we can use to produce useful results sometimes, if we handle it carefully. But it's also a concept that can produce some weird results, even if we follow all the rules.

Re: The Point of the Banach-Tarski Theorem

#116

So, Banach-Tarski says you can split a sphere of volume S into a finite number of pieces and reassemble the pieces into two spheres of volume S. Is the proof constructive? As in: does the proof actually show how to build the pieces? If yes, is the boundary of the pieces of measurable surface? Can the pieces be rendered in 3D? Or is it just another one of those "proofs" where if the set of pieces doesn't exist we land…

* The proof uses the Axiom of Choice, so no, it's not constructive; * The boundary of the pieces has to be unmeasurable, in that sense it's similar to Vitali's set[0]; * No, the pieces are more-or-less a "fog" of points. * I don't know why you have "proofs" in quotation marks, and I don't know what you mean by the second half of the sentence (even if I replace "contraction" with "contradiction"). I do feel like a car…

> I don't know why you have "proofs" in quotation marks

Because proof by contradiction is viewed by an entire category of mathematicians as "wrong" (please make sure to note the use of quotes in case you missed them).

Read all about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

In a very tangible sense, they're correct.

"Proof" by contradiction, tertium non datur, proof by the absurd, whatever you want to call it, more often than not entirely fails to produce working examples, which makes the "proof" fare less useful than the one that explains how to build an actual exemplar.

Post reply on HN