Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 161 posts

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#91

Post by mbesto »

Some meta here:

After the incident, Microsoft gave Kotaku's Brian Ashcraft the following statement.

Foxconn has been an important partner of ours and remains an important partner. I trust them as a responsible company to continue to evolve their process and work relationships. That is something we remain committed to—the safe and ethical treatment of people who build our products. That's a core value of our company.

Is there anything human about this statement? Clearly they have never been committed to this. You know what sounds human to me? Someone admitting a mistake has been made and fixing it with clear actionable items. I hope I speak for the masses when I say I'm completely desensitized by comments like this in today's world, because I simply don't believe it.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#92

Post by anamax »

louislouis wrote: post #90
yummyfajitas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. If a company pays people money to build stuff for them (as in India or Indonesia), you criticize them as exploiting the poor. And if they stop paying people money to build stuff for them (as in Flint Michigan), you also criticize them for exploiting the poor?

Pay is certainly a good thing. But perhaps the companies need a heavy touch of social responsibility as part of their manifesto. Unfortunately social responsibility does not fly in the name of profit. That is what I mean by exploitation.

> Unfortunately social responsibility does not fly in the name of profit. That is what I mean by exploitation.

Profit? How about the buyer?

You're free to tell Apple that you won't buy unless they pay enough so workers can have BMWs. If Apple believes you, it will do so and pass along those costs.

What? You're not willing to pay for workers to have BMWs?

You're awfully free with other people's money.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#93

Post by vacri »

mc32 wrote: post #80
vacri wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing that it wasn't just factory workers that created all that wealth - current developed nations benefitted massively from the immense amounts of wealth they pulled from the 'new world', an option that is no longer available these days.

During the age of conquest Spain was able to extract natural resources (such as minerals), but for the most part, Britain, Portugal, France benefitted from the trade with their colonists --not trade with new world peoples. I think it could be argued that this reliance on natural resources by Spain, contrasted with commerce favored by Britain, for example, resulted in the slow decline of imperial power by Spain. I thi…

The UK extracted immense amounts of wealth from India alone - where is China's India? Africa was plundered in all senses of the word by western Europe. It's not just Spanish gold that I'm referring to.

My point is that the strength of the UK economy of the time wasn't just 'factory workers', conquering a quarter of the world's landmass and nicking their stuff also helped significantly. China can't replicate this.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#94

Post by jmathes »

maratd wrote: post #86
ugh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation. Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

> It’s exploitation, pure and simple. One party can't exploit another without the threat or use of force. If no threat of force is present, then the relationship is voluntary and both parties should accept responsibility for participating in it. > It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. If a man one thousand years from the future came to visit you , he may very well consider your standar…

> This is business. ... Let them hash it out.

When is a disagreement not business? Why should we be unwilling to take sides in a negotiating even when it is "business?" When a person's negotiating position is so bad that they use suicide to opt out, I feel sympathy, and I suspect that humanity might me better off if their position were improved by non-capitalist intervention of some kind.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#95

Post by louislouis »

anamax wrote: post #92
louislouis wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay is certainly a good thing. But perhaps the companies need a heavy touch of social responsibility as part of their manifesto. Unfortunately social responsibility does not fly in the name of profit. That is what I mean by exploitation.

> Unfortunately social responsibility does not fly in the name of profit. That is what I mean by exploitation. Profit? How about the buyer? You're free to tell Apple that you won't buy unless they pay enough so workers can have BMWs. If Apple believes you, it will do so and pass along those costs. What? You're not willing to pay for workers to have BMWs? You're awfully free with other people's money.

Your argument is void because the buyer never finds out what conditions the products are made in unless the factory workers protest such as in this case. Social responsibility is not part of the sales pitch, all the buyer see's are the shiny packaging and the sparkly tv commercials with their favorite celebrity. Were the buyer able to make an informed decision regarding his/her purchase, perhaps they'll choose otherwise.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#96

Post by ugh »

maratd wrote: post #86
ugh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation. Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

> It’s exploitation, pure and simple. One party can't exploit another without the threat or use of force. If no threat of force is present, then the relationship is voluntary and both parties should accept responsibility for participating in it. > It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. If a man one thousand years from the future came to visit you , he may very well consider your standar…

Power imbalance can create exploitation even without any external coercion.

I think a hypothetical example can be helpful here: Imagine you are in the middle of the desert and dying. Some guy in a helicopter arrives and offers you a contract: He will get you to the closest hospital if you give him all your money and nearly all of all your future income.

There is no external coercion involved, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to sign, but it’s still exploitation. (All the laws I know acknowledge that: Not helping someone who is dying is a crime.)

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#97

Post by bballbackus »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

They don't consider it inhumane, because it lies around the general treatment these people will get for the majority of low wage low skill jobs in China. This unrest is good though, as it compliments the already staggering turnover rate Foxconn endures with its employees, and will lead to marginal improvement over time assuming low skill job demand is competitive enough in China.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#98

Post by Andys »

knieveltech wrote: post #13
marknutter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just ditch every piece of technology then?

Ditch every piece of technology that's got a foundation in exploitation and human suffering? Challenge Accepted.

Is there a market for this? I don't know of any "fair trade" electronics makers, that claim to produce good ethically.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#99

Post by philwelch »

vacri wrote: post #93
mc32 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the age of conquest Spain was able to extract natural resources (such as minerals), but for the most part, Britain, Portugal, France benefitted from the trade with their colonists --not trade with new world peoples. I think it could be argued that this reliance on natural resources by Spain, contrasted with commerce favored by Britain, for example, resulted in the slow decline of imperial power by Spain. I thi…

The UK extracted immense amounts of wealth from India alone - where is China's India? Africa was plundered in all senses of the word by western Europe. It's not just Spanish gold that I'm referring to. My point is that the strength of the UK economy of the time wasn't just 'factory workers', conquering a quarter of the world's landmass and nicking their stuff also helped significantly. China can't replicate this.

The question is whether it's more productive to conquer other continents and plunder them with 18th century technology or just produce stuff with 21st century technology. And it's not as easy as you'd think. Most of the imperial powers spent a lot of money on things like shipping people across oceans, maintaining vast military forces to guard their empires, building massive amounts of infrastructure in their empires, trying to convert the natives to Christianity or at least stop them from immolating themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres, teaching the natives to govern themselves, getting into wars with your colonists when they want to be an independent country, and getting into wars with the natives when they want to be an independent country. Adding insult to injury, having huge empires means a war with the neighboring European country turns into a huge world war between your colonies and the enemy's colonies. It gets so expensive that eventually you have to abandon your colonies--and it's not like India or Africa just ran out of natural resources. Quite the opposite, really.

So instead of messing around with all of that, China's expenses are limited to building infrastructure in China, maintaining vast military forces to guard China and occasionally menace Taiwan, and converting the Chinese to some vaguely secular state-approved worldview. And they have the benefit of modern technology and the entire developed world to crib notes from. They don't have to figure this shit out the first time. A factory anywhere in the West in the 19th century was a best guess--a Chinese factory today benefits from 200 years of experience and empirical research into how to run a factory, robots, computers, a huge foreign population of people buying stuff, and thousands of Western-educated professionals. I think China has the advantage.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#100

Post by gerggerg »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

I don't agree. First, education levels among Foxconn employees are probably considerably lower than you can imagine. These people just don't fully understand how inhumane their jobs are or the lasting effects of the chemicals they work with and are probably directly lied to about it. Second they may already be owed money by Foxconn for overtime, healthcare, regular wages etc. and can't just outright quit out of fear of never seeing any of that money. Third there's a never ending supply of new workers, ignorant to the conditions in the factory, which pretty much nullifies their ability to bargain for rights. Fourth, according to the recent This American Life episode, THEY CAN BE LEGALLY PUNISHED FOR TRYING TO FORM UNIONS. I don't know how to stress the importance of that other than by raising my voice on the internet. HN doesn't have bolding.

TLDR:

They can't bargain. Plain and simple.

We have worker protections. If all that mattered was the free market then we wouldn't need them.

Post reply on HN