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Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

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Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#421
post #93

I dunno, maybe if Spotify wasn't spending hundreds of million on podcast deals and actually focusing on what its users want, they wouldn't need to lay people off. Any way you slice it, there's no way that the Rogan deal pays for itself. Spotify is stingy AF with the artists that drove people to the service, and then firehoses Rogan with cash and tries to shove podcasts down people's throats. I was a happy Spotify sub…

Not to mention their podcast deals are bad for the consumer- Spotify was and is great because people _wanted_ to pay a monthly fee for access to (nearly) unlimited music instead of buying albums.

Podcasts on the other hand already worked great before Spotify started taking them exclusive.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#422

I get needing to keep a company lean and that businesses operate to make money... But most of these recent layoffs really make me feel uneasy. Spotify is a little different because AFAIK they are still operating at a negative net income, but still let's take a look at this. They're going to let go 600 people.. that's maybe an annual 90 million in savings (150k salary). The company's revenue is about 9 billion with -3…

I think what we don't see talked about is the avoidance of continuing to take on debt when interest rates are much higher than in recent past. Companies can issue bonds to raise money instead of loans but both are based on interest rates. Companies pulling back on growth investments will help their bottom line sooner. For tech companies their greatest cost is employees which also is where they invest for more growth…

Cash flow is always king, as positive cash flow is what keeps a company default alive like forever, or rather as long as cash flow is positive.

And yes, I think high interest rates play role. Either because credit lines become more expensive or because investor and VC money is harder to come by.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#423
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applied for an "entry-level" EM role with Spotify in 2021 and the base was 260-275, plus a generous bonus target and stock. TC would have been pushing $400k, for a fully remote USCAN-based role. I say that strictly as a calibration point - it's unlikely engineers are pushing half a million (maybe at the Staff+ level) but there's also not likely any engineers before $150k TC. I'd expect even mid-levels to be in the…

The stock price has more then halved since 2021, and based on their business model and history of profit, as an employee, I would not value the stock portion of compensation much. As far as I can tell, Apple/Google/Amazon will always provide the ceiling price for how much Spotify can charge its customers, hence capping revenue, and the 3 record labels will always extract just enough to keep Spotify operating. In a si…

That’s what they attempted with podcasts.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not interested in engaging on identity politics.

Just turn off your internet services if you don't want to engage with differing points of view.

Luckily,I am fine with people having different points of view, even when they are wrong. I have the right to see them but not engage or to point and laugh and move on, they don't reserve the right to force me to engage. This person wishes to take the right away from people to even know of the differing point of view, never allowing dissent or support. Good effort though.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to destroy productivity, firing people is a sure proof way of doing that. In Spotify’s case, the business not making money, and hence not having a stock price that keeps up with the market, is also a way to destroy productivity. Higher productivity people are probably not going to want to work at a charity.

So I guess you really dislike people in the OSS space who are considered the most productive of us all and essentially give all their work away for free, kind of like a charity. Spotify is a jukebox. You put money in and music plays. It's not a new concept in the slightest capacity. If they haven't figured out how to turn a profit now will they ever?

> If they haven't figured out how to turn a profit now will they ever?

The corporate entity Spotify will never turn a major profit, but that's by design.

Spotify made a deal with the devil to come to terms with the record labels, and is now fully baked into a "Hollywood Accounting" set of terms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting) which ensure the real money goes to the power players of RIAA cartel.

It turns out, if you have good lawyers, you can structure a set of entities such that neither the artists nor the public shareholders of the streaming service get the money, but rather, the opaque production company or record label that sits in between it all.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#426
post #335
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How can such a simple concept (listen to music) get so many basics so wrong and have such glaring bugs?" Spotify internally has a model where they have a large number of small teams where each is responsible for only a tiny part of the experience. Possibly this leads to a lack of a coherent experience. The other factor may be the constant experimentation. Frankly, 20-30 year old media players were better. So what th…

The most frustrating one for me is that saving an album doesn’t add the Artist to your artists list in your Library.

You have to ‘follow’ the artist by going to their profile and clicking ‘follow’. I much prefer this functionality because liking an album or a song does not mean I want to be exposed to all new music by the artist.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#427
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there are not. There's a massive information imbalance. Most companies do not make enough information public for workers to truly assess whether their growth is sustainable or not. Public companies have to file a certain amount of financial information, but they are very good at playing games with that information to mask their true financial health. Workers have no choice when it comes to positions where they mig…

I think there's probably a few things here that are worth a comment: - Information imbalance: from people I've talked to in decently senior roles at even very large companies, it might be surprising to learn that information can be poor at every level, because generally the people who are responsible for hiring at even fairly senior levels are not directly also responsible for expenditure, especially when macro-econo…

I appreciate your reasoned and detailed response. I disagree with you and I'll take it point by point. In some cases I think the disagreement is based more in a [reasonable] misunderstanding of the point I'm actually making, or where I didn't make my point as clearly as I should have.

> Information imbalance

I have been that Director level manager responsible for scaling and hiring with out the full scope of information. When I said "people responsible" I mean, the people with the information. And yes, it is a smaller pool than many people might thing. But it is also a much more highly compensated pool. Those are the people who are ultimately responsible, and the people who should face consequences and accountability. I would include the investors (at the very least those who sit on the board and take an active role in the running of the organization) in that pool.

> There's no physical machine the company is adding

Here I fumbled my words. I should have said "capital" or the "investors". Yes, absolutely, the organization itself provides value. But that organization is almost entirely composed of workers and could be run entirely by the workers with out capital. Traditionally, in a factory setting, the value capital has been said to provide - and the reasoning for capital taking the returns - is the physical machinery necessary for workers to do their work. In a tech company, there is no such machinery.

The organization of a tech company is entirely composed of, and run by, workers. In the vast majority of cases, they don't need any physical machinery to do their work except for consumer grade electronics they probably already own or could trivially acquire. In the case of a fully distributed company, this is even more true.

NOTE: I am including management in the workers here. I'm using workers, as it is used in the context of worker cooperatives or employee owned business, as a synonym of employees. This is different from the traditional union or labor organizing context which separates "line workers" from "managers".

> Tech workers are still underpaid

In a traditional capitalist labor market, I think you can reasonably make this argument. This views workers as replaceable cogs and looks at how cheaply they could be purchased on the market.

But I'm looking at it from the perspective of "what does it actually take to produce the value the company produces". And all it takes is the workers time, skills, and knowledge. As I made in other points, capital brings very little to the table. In that case, the workers produce the entire value of the company. And from that perspective, many workers at tech companies (which, remember, I'm using as a synonym for "employee" here) are still compensated less than the value they create. In some cases by significant amounts.

> Paper losses are not true losses and you can just wait for the price to go back up

I'll grant you the wait for them to go back up point. That was a bit glib and not well formed, but also somewhat tangential to my larger point which I didn't make very clearly: which is that while those losses might hurt on paper if they represent wealth that is on paper then they have no immediate economic impact on the person losing it. There's no risk of hunger from a paper loss. No risk of homelessness. No risk of exposure to the elements.

And I will grant you, yes, there are some investors who do expose themselves that much with their investments. But they are a tiny outlier. For the vast majority of investors, their investment is surplus far above and beyond what they need to live a comfortable life to a reasonable standard of living. In other words, they can afford to lose it while suffering no unreasonable impact to their quality of life. (Note, I would consider going from "can afford a private yatch" to "have to live an upper middle class life" a reasonable impact.")

To your point about institutional investors, the vast majority of those assets (80 - 90%) are owned by the top 10%. Who are, by definition, the middle upper class and above. They are perfectly comfortable. And they can afford a loss.

My larger point is about the risk actually being taken - not in terms of paper wealth - but in terms of real impact on quality of life. Investors aren't taking much. Workers are.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#428
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, revenue is not really all that relevant for this kind of business. They’re a low margin business because they must pay huge bills to record labels. R&D doesn’t cut record label costs.

I'm having trouble understanding why 'revenue is not really all that relevant.' If you're burning $40M a year, and you press a button to save $90M a year, yes your label costs are the same but how are you not now at +$50M a year?

Payroll is a cost, so it’s more relevant to think about a layoff in terms of its impact to profit (your example) than revenue. Lots of companies sell at a tight margin, so tiny cost savings as a percent of revenue can be a big difference in profit.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower productivity is highly questionable. I’ve really only seen layoffs boost productivity. Suddenly there is less overhead and fewer cooks-in-the-kitchen. Morale hits are real, but tend to fade if people feel confident that they’ve survived another day.

You arrived at this conclusion anecdotally. You can't do your best work with a constant cloud hanging over you, doesn't matter who you are.

Morale hits are real, but tend to fade if people feel confident that they’ve survived another day.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The layoffs aren’t about actually saving the cost of those specific employees. Instead, the threat of being laid off is being used as a stick to bring the remaining employees in line — productivity has been lower the last few years, and leadership has no real way to measure on an individual level or how to improve it, so putting the pressure on employees is a tried and true tactics. Further, they can make lower TC of…

Bingo! Not many people realize some firings actually increase productivity.

Source? Because there is actually research beeing put into these results, that it decreases productivity:

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/why-copycat-layoffs-wo...

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