Live data from Hacker News

Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

newsroom.spotify.com

411–420 of 495 posts

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I pay someone to do nothing, who is at fault? The person who shows up ready to work everyday or the person who made a bad hiring decision and doesn't have the work for that person? I'm not arguing against layoffs, I'm arguing that the people making the hiring mistakes are not accountable. If I as a CFO give the green light to increase the company's workforce by 10% and two years later make a full reverse, that CFO…

This is extremely naive take. No one can predict the future. If I hire a bunch of construction workers expecting to sell 100 homes and suddenly the housing market collapse and I need to only build 50 homes that I have contract for, I need to fire some construction workers. It is as simple as that. No one can predict business cycles and that is the fundamental driver of sales and input costs. If one can successfully p…

Since people predict the future all the time, I'll assume you mean that it's a lot more difficult to make predictions in complicated systems like housing markets.

Assuming that's what you meant, let's consider the "I" in "If I hire..."

If you're hiring someone, whether it's for your home building business, or your tech company, you're not doing it unaware of the market you're operating in.

No real estate developer is ignoring potential futures. Those that do fail fast. That someone is hiring is evidence of that someone is making predictions. They're predicting at least one potential future where the person they hire helps the company achieve their goals.

Speaking from experience, when I hire people, I am most definitely thinking of the potential future that person helps steer a company towards. I'm also very aware of what will happen if I can't afford to hire someone. Sometimes it's worth risking potential market effects that'd make it so I can't afford to pay that person, but usually it's not.

> No one can predict business cycles

Happens all the time, and people frequently make accurate predictions.

> they can be a superior macro investor and make billions.

Tell me, how did the current crop of billionaires become billionaires? Certainly not by deciding that no one can predict the future.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#412
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guild-owned technology, created with human-aligned intentions (as opposed to greed-aligned). Human-centric tech is superior to capital-centric tech. Open source is basically this in a naive and unorganized way, especially when MIT licensed (a giant con in my opinion). GNU does much better. But if there existed a guild license connected to tech and patents that are must haves, it would tip the balance. The guild would…

What is this guild license, and how does it differ from the current system of having private companies own software licenses, tech patents, and trade secrets? It sounds to me like you're just describing a tech company.

It is a tech company but it is owned by specialized, skilled workers. It is a guild because tech workers are professional artisans. Guilds are an organization of skilled professionals which have quality certification for work, often times integrated with legal frameworks in a government.

Software needs to be elevated, credentialed, regulated, and more respected. This is what a guild would enable. But I think merging benefits of unions with the prestige of a guild would provide some needed innovation in that space.

Providing skilled professionals with an army of lawyers, professional insurance, income guarantees, healthcare, lead management, all with cooperative ownership, profit sharing, etc is a drastically different incentive structure than existing organizations.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#413
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did they blame the people at the top for their new job and wages? Companies aren’t very upfront about over-hiring.

It wasn't over-hiring given the environment at the time. It was over hiring given current environment. It seems clear that companies who took a more conservative approach to hiring have come out better for it. Not all companies could be so lucky. Some had activist investors who aggressively pushed for growth or else pushed out leaders. Messy world we live in.

It was. It's naive to think that a boom economy will last forever.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely naive take. No one can predict the future. If I hire a bunch of construction workers expecting to sell 100 homes and suddenly the housing market collapse and I need to only build 50 homes that I have contract for, I need to fire some construction workers. It is as simple as that. No one can predict business cycles and that is the fundamental driver of sales and input costs. If one can successfully p…

Since people predict the future all the time, I'll assume you mean that it's a lot more difficult to make predictions in complicated systems like housing markets. Assuming that's what you meant, let's consider the "I" in "If I hire..." If you're hiring someone, whether it's for your home building business, or your tech company, you're not doing it unaware of the market you're operating in. No real estate developer is…

Have you built a Billion $$$ company? If so your comment about your own hiring is worthless. Anyone can run a small business. There are literally millions of SMBs

For large companies with public investors, there is a risk of not scaling at the right time.

History is filled with failed companies that didn't scale during 2012-2022 and were conservative.

History is also filled with idiots who claimed bubble and predicting crash every year.

If I have limited ambition of staying a $10 Million company, I can absolutely play it safe and hire very conservatively.

Scaling is a Risk/Reward play and that's what the investors pay the premium and expect rewards

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#415

This is probably the least tactical message amongst all the companies that have laid off people. Ek's spent most of the time rambling about efficiency and organizational changes to leadership positions who'll be least affected by the layoffs. Then comes the layoff news. It's almost as if he's rectifying someone else's mistake and everyone getting laid off should be thankful about it. I wish CEOs read some of the emai…

Seriously.

If you're laying people off in an email it needs to be in the first paragraph. Don't bury the lede.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#416
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I confess I don't get the big ticket podcast exclusives. But, then, I basically never listed to any of the "big name" talk radio shows either (and even actively avoided them).

What's weirder to me is how I can't remember even seeing them advertised within Spotify. I know there are some really need content Spotify is producing, but the ones I'm aware off I've generally found by accident somewhere on the Internet, never through their own UI.

Can we switch accounts?

I have listened to exactly 1/2 of one episode of a podcast on Spotify and now have to actively navigate away from the main page of the app if I want to do what I do the other ~99.9% of the time, which is listen to one of a handful of playlists or try to find other similar music.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who benefitted from the mass hirings? Stock holders, and also workers. Did the workers complain when the job market (esp in tech) was on fire and wages were increasing? No. Did they blame the people at the top for their new job and wages? No. But, now they want to blame leaders when there are mass layoffs. I think the blame is misplaced. The root cause was the stock market, and better yet blame the fed. The incentive…

All of these companies laying people off are claiming that they "over hired" or "over extended" themselves during the pandemic and now they need to tighten their belts. Who made the decision to hire more workers than the company needed? Leadership. Who made the decisions to put the company in a position where it would need to lay people off? Leadership. Who bears the consequences of those decisions? It's not the peop…

> people who say that investors are the ones taking the risk

Those same people will tell you how the "free money era" is over. Take a look a labors share of the economy, if capitals share is so large due to capital risk, and capital is easier to get, why didn't investors share of the pie shrink?

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#418
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A working agreement is a contract between two parties. Who made the decision to join a company that was seeing sudden, unsustainable growth ? Workers. Who made the decisions to place themselves in a position they maybe aren't that needed? Workers. Who enjoyed significant salary increase due to higher demand for their skills, increasing the cost of their labours while asking for increased benefits such as flexibility,…

No there are not. There's a massive information imbalance. Most companies do not make enough information public for workers to truly assess whether their growth is sustainable or not. Public companies have to file a certain amount of financial information, but they are very good at playing games with that information to mask their true financial health. Workers have no choice when it comes to positions where they mig…

I think there's probably a few things here that are worth a comment:

- Information imbalance: from people I've talked to in decently senior roles at even very large companies, it might be surprising to learn that information can be poor at every level, because generally the people who are responsible for hiring at even fairly senior levels are not directly also responsible for expenditure, especially when macro-economic conditions are responsible for those financial decision. Essentially, the person who is responsible for setting the hiring targets to enable 20% growth is likely not responsible for modelling what happens if the cost of short term debt goes from 2% to 10%. Probably this is most likely in the superscalers, and it's likely hardest in the companies from 2-5k people - with a tech org of about 1k, you're likely acutely aware of the impact hiring strong people can have on your product while lacking the numbers to approach the problem analytically and with a sophisticated finance org. Basically, the number of people who could reasonably be expected to consider 'if we hire too many people, we'll have to fire them' as a significant part of their brief is smaller than you might think.

- 'There's no physical machine the company is adding that allows the workers to do their job which they couldn't themselves easily acquire'. Ignoring the focus on the physical machine bit and focusing more on the creative part of 'what does the company add, what do the people add', your claim may be true in some parts of industry and if you're in that side of industry I lament your situation, but for large parts of industry it's unequivocally false. There's a huge amount of value add that the machinery of an engineering organisation adds. In the more creative spaces, anyone who's operated in a truly high performing culture will have observed that a lot of the culture of building comes from the grouping of people who've been very, very carefully hired for, who've been carefully placed on team together, where memetic techniques have been used to proliferate certain positive behaviours, raising people up. We succeed as a team and fail as a team. You can see this over and over in so many testimonials - the stories from those who worked at Xerox PARC, stories from the MIT LISP hackers, back 50 years, all the way through hearing about the work the M1 team was doing, seeing the companies that spawn hundreds of startups from their alumni. And that's not to talk about the companies who specifically use process and ritual to ensure that engineers are consistently at the bar across massive orgs, from Google's exacting bars for code quality all the way to the consulting arms of Oracle, CapGemini etc who can approach repeated problems and get the most out of their engineers in a space where it's arguably harder to hire talent. And this is totally forgetting the huge non-SWE parts of orgs required to enable success - sales, finance, marketing, etc etc.

- Tech workers are still underpaid - think there'll be a rude awakening coming for you I guess. People across the world get paid based on how much they can get in the market (and if you're already at the company, the switching cost). There's room for places that do it differently, but not much room. If a large number of qualified people join the labour pool, you can bet that the practical market comp goes down.

- Paper losses are not true losses and you can just wait for the price to go back up: Honestly, that's wrong on like every level. Firstly, at the company level, there's a very real risk for many of these companies that they go bankrupt. Spotify has something like $2.8B in cash equivalents, has revenue of $9B and expenditure of about $9B. If their revenue dips by 20% due to e.g. a global recession, that cash supply will last them about 18 months. Before they get there, they have to raise more money. If raising via equity, they're going to be raising at their new and lower valuation, so their investors take a huge haircut. If they raise via debt, they'll be getting charged a lot on interest (because their risk of default is nontrivial). My brief but non-zero insider knowledge of some of these debt deals make it very much sound like a sellers market. A smaller company might expect to see 15% interest demanded - if you need $150M, you're in trouble. The staff who Spotify are dropping today likely represent $300M over that same 18 month period. You can bet that they'll be making this cut after scraping the barrel everywhere else.

Now, for the actual investors - if you take a massive paper loss, you're basically not getting that money back on a reasonable timeframe. https://danluu.com/norstad/risk-time/ is a good article on this topic. The simple way to think about it is that if in the good years you get 4% a year ROI across your portfolio and then you take a 50% haircut once, it will take you 18 years to make that difference back. The people who invest in tech companies are in large part not rich billionaires looking to pay for their next yacht - they're institutional investors, mutuals, pension funds who are looking to maximise returns for their members.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#419
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple One which includes Apple Music, family app sharing, family storage, and family privacy (essentially TOR for everyday browsing, except through a privacy preserving tango between Apple and CloudFlare) is a surprisingly good value relative to the standalone music offerings. https://www.apple.com/apple-one/ Family is $22.95 a month, with 5 other people: - Apple Music - Apple TV+ - Apple Arcade - iCloud+ (with photo…

Apple Music is very clunky, much worse experience than spotify. I tried twice to switch. I would recommend paying a dollar for icloud+ and ignoring the rest.

One is for people who like collecting music and discovering things you wouldn't have discovered. The other is for people who like radio, and hearing more things like the things they already like.

They're only superficially the same, in fact they're wildly different. Each will be a "worse experience" if your preferred experience is the other.

Re: Spotify reducing employee base by about 6%

#420

The Spotify app constantly frustrates me and I miss the old Google Play Music app. - I listened to 5 minutes of one episode of a podcast once, decided it wasn't for me and stopped, but ever since then I have an entire pane on my homepage dedicated to my apparent love for that podcast. - The first 4 sections of the homepage recommend me exactly the same things - I have the last 6 albums I listened to at the top, then…

There are plenty of dedicated podcast apps that offer a better experience with no or very little algorithmic recommendation system.

I've used PocketCasts for years and it's been perfect and doing exactly what it needs to do and no more. The main page is just a grid of podcasts I'm subscribed to, and I can go into a list of all unplayed episodes of all my podcasts sorted chronologically. There is a "discover" tab that has featured/trending podcasts, but I never touch that other than to use the search (which doubles as an entry field where you can paste an RSS link to subscribe that way)

Post reply on HN