Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#241

Post by notfromhere » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #30

jasonlotito wrote: post #6

> must be selected by a school district employee who holds a valid educational media specialist certificate, The same people who oppose freedom of speech are over here supporting DeSantis and his crusade against education and his push for bigger government.

Free speech is not the same as being able to tell other people’s kids anything you want while they’re attending a mandatory educational institution run in the name of the public. This law seems like an extreme reaction, but to what many people believe is already an extreme situation. See also: https://youtu.be/TwucVRj_mdc

This whole thing is basically a moral panic a la 80s Satanic Panic where people thought playing DnD led to ritual murder.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#242

Post by danaris » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #146

scifibestfi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

 

This is a motte-and-bailey fallacy [0], using the (easy to defend) argument "we shouldn't give obscene material to 8-year-olds" to justify the (indefensible) argument that "no material that any parents find ideologically reprehensible should be made available to any children through the school system". Note that nobody in this thread defending the policy has been able to name any of these porn books that have been gi…

(Posted elsewhere in the discussion, but that ended up being on a dead thread)

There is a strong movement afoot to define any material teaching about

1) consent (whether it mentions sex or not)

2) the child's own body (in ways designed to help them recognize and avoid things like sexual abuse)

3) queer issues of any kind, but especially trans issues

as pornographic, regardless of the actual content, so that they can ban it and claim they're saving the poor children from horrible, horrible sexual material.

This is not a new movement; conservatives have been trying to ban queer people from any kind of public visibility for decades by claiming that their very existence is sexual, ignoring the fact that heterosexual romance and sex is being shoved into our faces constantly, often in far more blatant ways, and often in media explicitly aimed at children. They're merely redoubling their efforts now that it's becoming clear that society at large is starting to genuinely accept trans people, which they cannot abide.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#243

Post by GordonS » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

agloeregrets wrote: post #170

crooked-v wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate politics need an underclass to target and oppress. In the US that used to be Black people, but then Black people became too popular and too well supported; and then for a while it was gay people, but then then gay people became too popular and too well supported; and now the target is transgender people and gender nonconformists. Consider the quote from Lyndon B. Johnson: "If you can convince the lowest white ma…

> and then for a while it was gay people, but then then gay people became too popular and too well supported; and now the target is transgender people and gender nonconformists. This law explicitly bans discussion of Gay people.

Which for any western democracy in 2022/2023, is just... mind-bogglingly backwards.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#244

Post by loudmax » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

kleton wrote: post #124

zenkat wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I disagree with the assertion that destroying public education is a right-wing goal. While there may be some individuals or groups with that belief, it is not a universally held position among those who identify as right-wing. Additionally, making it a crime to teach is not a tactic that is being used by any mainstream political group or party. Education is an important issue that affects the future of society and sh…

I tend to agree with you, but destroying public education does seem to be a goal of the most vocal members of the political right wing. Moderate voices are being drowned out, and increasingly excommunicated from the Republican party.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#245

Post by mynameisvlad » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

seanw444 wrote: post #230

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know how you feel. I refuse to go to Virginia since they don't accept my CCW permit from Florida.

I don't step in non-constitutional-carry states. The good thing is that, with the exception of basically Florida, there are no states I care to visit that don't already have it. The problem is traveling to those states. I'm temporarily a felon to get there, even though it is my right to keep and bear that handgun nationally. Beats me. I will not contribute my money to a government that does not allow me my rights, an…

> and will also not disarm myself to make myself more of a juicy target

Are you the president of the United States? Are you a multi-millionaire? Are you openly a member of a gang or other criminal organization?

If not, then, quite plainly, you're not a target. Period.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#246

Post by bb101 » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:43 PM UTC

zacharytelschow wrote: post #142

mabbo wrote: post #3

Hey America, is everything okay down there? Y'all have some truly dystopian stuff going on there. Felony prosecution for showing kids books that the Governor didn't approve of? Yikes.

Can I correctly surmise that you're Canadian? If so, your leader declared a national emergency to squash free speech, banished handguns so you can no longer protect yourself, and cut off political opponents from the financial system. Trying to control the books children can view in an educational environment seems trivial by comparison.

"banished handguns so you can no longer protect yourself..."

I think this view has been quite comprehensively debunked by now. I for one do not want to live in a country where most people have access to handguns.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#247

Post by anotherman554 » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

notch656c wrote: post #132

CydeWeys wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were some books that some segment of voters didn't approve of that certain school libraries were providing. I mean, so? This is small minority of people we're talking about. Why do they get veto power over everything present in the classroom? It's the teachers' job to teach the kids, manage/provision the classroom, etc. At some point you have to just tell people "No".

If a law is passed the presumption under democracy is it has the assent of the majority. Personally I'm not a huge fan of democracy, but you're looking at it.

"If a law is passed the presumption under democracy is it has the assent of the majority. "

Why would that be the presumption instead of, you know, looking at polls?

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#248

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #182

wolrah wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really emphasize your first sentence in some way, it was really easy to have eyes drawn to the second part when skimming down the thread.

It's unfortunate that Hacker News doesn't support bold text. I would have bolded it if I could - it seems like a lot of people replying to me completely missed that I don't actually agree with any of these arguments, and am just telling people arguments that those on the other side make.

[deleted]

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#249

Post by crooked-v » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:45 PM UTC

notch656c wrote: post #200

crooked-v wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers regularly have their own collections of books in classrooms, separate from those held by the school library.

Are they completely non-curated? Kids just put whatever book they want there? If so I'd say the teacher isn't liable for what happens. If the teachers put the books or manages which books are there they are curated and that activity can be managed by the people paying the teacher, ie the taxpayers/representatives.

> and that activity can be managed by the people paying the teacher, ie the taxpayers/representatives

In this case, Florida has decided to manage that activity by making it a felony to merely happen to have a book on the shelf that's not on the pre-approved list.

Re: Unapproved books now a felony in Manatee County schools

#250

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 4:45 PM UTC

Jiro wrote: post #37

deugtniet wrote: post #4

If anybody thinks this is a good idea, I'm looking forward to reading your opinions.

There's actually a very simple argument: The existing system has been used as a workaround by activists to defacto teach things that shouldn't be taught to students. Keeping the books out of the library is the best practical method of stopping this, because directly controlling the contents of the curriculum is hard to enforce. That argument may or may not be true in this particular case, but it's not some impossible…

That's a good steel man argument, thanks for articulating it. The irony is, they are solving "activists who defacto teach things that shouldn't be taught" by themselves becoming "activists who ban things from being taught". Opposite side of the same coin.