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Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

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Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#361

Post by moloch-hai »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #306
Tade0 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Li-ion batteries don't contain rare earths. Recycling li-ion is currently a booming business because it requires much less energy than processing raw ores - see Redwood Materials for more info. Everyone takes these calculations into account because batteries come under intense scrutiny from people with ulterior motives.

I can't wrap my head around how much lithium or other rare earth metals will need to be mined to transition entirely to solar, wind, and electric cars. What countries are these mined in? What percentage of the US grid is from wind or solar? Like 10%?

No lithium or "rare earths" (which are not anyway at all rare) are needed for a transition to solar and wind for power.

Electric cars use lithium, just now, and a bit of rare-earths. (They are used in wiper and window motors.) Cars are their own thing, which we would be better off with less of.

Obviously before you have built out wind and solar, you don't have much yet. It is a vacuous observation. Instead, look at the rate of deployment, which follows a classic exponential curve.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#362

Post by tuatoru »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #306
Tade0 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Li-ion batteries don't contain rare earths. Recycling li-ion is currently a booming business because it requires much less energy than processing raw ores - see Redwood Materials for more info. Everyone takes these calculations into account because batteries come under intense scrutiny from people with ulterior motives.

I can't wrap my head around how much lithium or other rare earth metals will need to be mined to transition entirely to solar, wind, and electric cars. What countries are these mined in? What percentage of the US grid is from wind or solar? Like 10%?

> What percentage of the US grid is from wind or solar?

That question needs to be qualified with a date and time. It's a moving target. Generally: number go up.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#363

Post by TheRealPomax »

shagie wrote: post #76
jfengel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. They are market leaders in hybrid cars, but have been surpassed in all electric. So they're not a fossil fuel company but their interests are aligned.

> They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. A vehicle running on hydrogen isn't an ICE. These are fuel cells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai This is an electric vehicle which generates power through hydrogen fuel cells rather than storing it as electrical energy in a battery (though it has a battery too). > Toyota's latest generation hybrid components were used extensively…

On a technical note, it's still an ICE. And Toyota's absolutely trying to show that it can actually be pretty much the same ICE but reinforced to deal with the much higher pressures from having to work with compressed hydrogen. But, while there is still internal combustion happening the major difference is that a hydrogen ICE produces heat and mostly water, rather than heat and mostly CO2 (). You just can't go as far on hydrogen mostly because the amount of dead weight required for hydrogen is so much higher than for fossil or electric.

) With the usual caveat that of the hydrogen product itself is currently not green, but as always, putting all the pollution in one spot, at scale, means far less pollution per car than if every car's running its own fossil furnace

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#364

Post by MagnumOpus »

moloch-hai wrote: post #352
Ensorceled wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It feels like the "save the planet" movement, or at least some shards of it, come with a very specific notion of how exactly it is ok to save the planet, and what fails on style points. This has always been a pain point for me. If you feel the world is facing an existential crisis (and I do), then it seems weird to go down the list of possible ways of avoiding utter catastrophe like you're at a sushi bar: Solar: Ah…

It is not "tone policing". That is an accusation guaranteed to derail any discussion. Nukes and geothermal simply cost more than solar and wind: nukes, many, many times more. Spending a billion dollars gets you N GW of solar or wind, and N/M, M>>1, of others. Generally, if you need a steam turbine to keep working, you will trail behind anything with zero opex. Hydrogen has a plausible place in long-term (i.e. strateg…

> Nukes and geothermal simply cost more

They only cost more because of "environmentalists" fighting both new reactors, fuel element transport and waste storage tooth and nail in a way they don't fight coal ash ponds or heavy metal tailing lakes...

(The average lifecycle cost of nuclear power at scale in France - where plants were built before anti-nuclear hysteria - is about 7 cents per kWh, same-ish as the cost of solar or wind fleet, and with fewer intermittency problems. Solar might be cheaper in Hawaii and California, but most places are not blessed with 3,000 hours of sunshine a year.)

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#365

Post by vel0city »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #306
Tade0 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Li-ion batteries don't contain rare earths. Recycling li-ion is currently a booming business because it requires much less energy than processing raw ores - see Redwood Materials for more info. Everyone takes these calculations into account because batteries come under intense scrutiny from people with ulterior motives.

I can't wrap my head around how much lithium or other rare earth metals will need to be mined to transition entirely to solar, wind, and electric cars. What countries are these mined in? What percentage of the US grid is from wind or solar? Like 10%?

26% of electricity generated in Texas in 2021 was from wind. Installed wind and solar capacity has grown quite a bit since 2021.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#366

Post by moloch-hai »

prennert wrote: post #322
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the article was fairly to the point: > There is a “common understanding worldwide that hydrogen should be limited to applications where it would be difficult to achieve decarbonisation with other methods”, says the report by the Tokyo-based non-profit think-tank Renewable Energy Institute (REI), but Japan has instead laid out a vision of a “hydrogen society where hydrogen is used in every sector”, while pro…

But pumped hydro schemes are targeted at frequent charge / release cycles (like once a day). I think what the post you answered to you pointed out is that Hydrogen could be used as long-term storage (storing overproduction from summer to be consumed in winter). This is where batteries are maybe not the best way forward. I have not looked too deeply into Hydrogen myself, but even this [0] fairly critical post classes…

Summer storage for winter will not be a thing.

Tropical solar farms synthesizing ammonia for export to high latitudes will be.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#367

Post by p-schultz »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #301
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get the risk. As a consumer I feel similar fear about EV car batteries. Even if you can find the escape hatch in a pinch (some EV doors aren't normally manually opened), your house could still burn down or there could be other life changing property damage. It's a small risk but still feels like a real risk.

> (some EV doors aren't normally manually opened) That screams regulation waiting to happen. like, have a lever or something on there. there is no more obvious or easily accessible place to flee a vehicle than the door. also, which "some". is this just another tesla quirk?

Yes, Teslas have buttons to open the doors, but there are also mechanical releases as a backup [1].

The backups unlock the doors "no questions asked", so to speak, which includes possibly damaging the windows (because they don't get lowered out of their seals). For the front doors they are so intuitively placed that pretty much all of my first-time passengers have already used them before I can tell them to press the button instead.

Models other than 3 also have mechanical releases for the rear doors, apparently, but using those involves removing floor mats (according to the owner's manuals, no personal experience).

[1]: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-7A32EC0...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#368

Post by TheRealPomax »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #221
TheRealPomax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one? Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work. They have no domestic oil production, and so few coal mines as to basically be irrelevant: all their fossil fuel is imported. Anywhere else on the planet: sure, this might be another way for big fossil to push for relevancy, but in Japan's case, hydrogen would be something that they can produce thems…

More lies and more deception: Japan has huge deposits of methan hydrate on sea floors it wants to mine. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanhydrat And this is why hydrogen is on the shit list, all the roads lead to ever more mined carbs, blown into the atmosphere in one way or another. The roads to green hydrogen are riddled with conversions that make it economically unviable. Its the equivalent of a addict switching…

No, it's more like a nation that was rolled into having a fuel dependency on other countries as suppliers trying to come up with ways to no longer be (as) dependent on countries like China or the US to keep the lights on and the cars going vroom.

Also, pretending that emission reduction isn't worth the effort because it's not zero-emission is a perfect example of advocating for the worst possible solution by denying the merit of a transitional solution just because it's not the ultimate solution. The world's not going to improve with that attitude.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#369

Post by moloch-hai »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #364
moloch-hai wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not "tone policing". That is an accusation guaranteed to derail any discussion. Nukes and geothermal simply cost more than solar and wind: nukes, many, many times more. Spending a billion dollars gets you N GW of solar or wind, and N/M, M>>1, of others. Generally, if you need a steam turbine to keep working, you will trail behind anything with zero opex. Hydrogen has a plausible place in long-term (i.e. strateg…

> Nukes and geothermal simply cost more They only cost more because of "environmentalists" fighting both new reactors, fuel element transport and waste storage tooth and nail in a way they don't fight coal ash ponds or heavy metal tailing lakes... (The average lifecycle cost of nuclear power at scale in France - where plants were built before anti-nuclear hysteria - is about 7 cents per kWh, same-ish as the cost of s…

False. As has been explained in detail too many times to count.

Please do not try to resurrect old falsehoods.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#370

Post by schwoll »

The EV push is marketing. It's someone trying to sell something. If countries were interested in solving anything they'd just install more electric trains. Even less of a commitment would be just use diesel commuter trains until the electric comes online. Until this happens everything else is just someone trying to sell stuff.
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