Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

hydrogeninsight.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 454 posts

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#331

Post by rich_sasha »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #282
rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

I thought the article was fairly to the point: > There is a “common understanding worldwide that hydrogen should be limited to applications where it would be difficult to achieve decarbonisation with other methods”, says the report by the Tokyo-based non-profit think-tank Renewable Energy Institute (REI), but Japan has instead laid out a vision of a “hydrogen society where hydrogen is used in every sector”, while pro…

I find there is a selective black and white perception of the world.

For example, renewables right now rely heavily on quick-to-dispatch gas plants - and that's fine as a stepping stone to a carbon-free future. Though the plan fo eliminating it is still vapourware - maybe better batteries, maybe larger grids, maybe something else.

But creating a hydrogen economy that somewhat relies on fossil fuels, with a clear pathway to eliminating the fossil fuel component? Anathema!

I have nothing at all against renewables and batteries, it sounds neat but remains incomplete here and now. But until it's clear it can replace all our uses of energy, I remain baffled by people who would like to shoot down any potential different path to that same goal.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#332

Post by schiffern »

flavius29663 wrote: post #327
schiffern wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more expensive than an ICE The (relevant) comparison was H2 versus BEVs — ie comparing decarbonized solutions apples-to-apples. I have edited to make that more clear. > why not pursue hydrogen investment as a possible alternative? Because hydrogen, for all its marketing, doesn't solve the problems people have with BEVs. Better BEVs do. I see a variety of BEV motorcycles and light trucks available. The same can't be…

> Because hydrogen, for all its marketing, doesn't actually solve the problems people have with BEVs. Better BEVs do. I guess it depends on the definition of "people". If you mean private automobile owners, then I agree that batteries will eat hydrogen's lunch. For everything else(70% of oil use), it's an open question. In the future, you might even see a migration of H2 technology from large applications to small au…

> I guess it depends on the definition of "people". If you mean private automobile owners

I'm just following your lead. You were the one who brought up "gas stations."

>For everything else(70% of oil use), it's an open question

Not really. Road use is ~50% .[1] It's all going BEV, like it or not.

Agriculture is another 10%. Ditto.

The technology improvement curves speak for themselves. ICE and H2 have both plateaued near their theoretical limits.

I intentionally said "ground vehicles," not private cars.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/307194/top-oil-consuming...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#333

Post by thereddaikon »

amluto wrote: post #142
TheRealPomax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one? Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work. They have no domestic oil production, and so few coal mines as to basically be irrelevant: all their fossil fuel is imported. Anywhere else on the planet: sure, this might be another way for big fossil to push for relevancy, but in Japan's case, hydrogen would be something that they can produce thems…

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

>This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source

Hydrogen is often compared against batteries. Those aren't an energy source either. I haven't seen anyone seriously propose hydrogen based powerplants. I have seen plenty talk about hydrogen fuel cells as a potential alternative to BEVs and a potential way to get around the multiple short comings of lithium batteries. Fuel cells of course have their own problems. But we've yet to come up with an alternative to gas engines that are as long ranged, quick to fuel, reliable, cost effective, safe and performant while also being net zero or negative carbon.

>So the only way this seems like a win for Japan is if electricity were cheap, battery EVs were not economical, and the loss associated with electrically synthesized hydrogen didn’t matter.

I feel like you are handwaving the issues with BEVs while focusing on the issues with hydrogen. I'm not sure which at the end of the day will turn out to be better. But right now BEVs are incapable of becoming the defacto solution for the simple fact that the battery packs wear out and replacing them will total the car. You can't develop a working used market this way. And lower income individuals simply can never afford to use them. The fact that car markers are going out of their way to design platforms with batteries that are difficult to replace exacerbates the problem. But even if they were easily swapped, their high cost and the fact they are tied to the vehicle means a large chunk of the market can't afford them. And nobody is talking about this.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#334

Post by [deleted] »

rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

[deleted]

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#335

Post by RetpolineDrama »

rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

>I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is.

Well, hydrogen is essentially a scam and giant energy sink.

>The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage

Sure, and compressed hydrogen is a terrible battery

>Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here.

Hydrogen isn't being pushed by "science", because it's a bad idea at the physics level. It's being pushed as a greenwashing/scam by the oil industry.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#336

Post by raxxorraxor »

schiffern wrote: post #325
flavius29663 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE vehicles conquered the world with abysmal efficiencies, they were around 10-15% when they already ruled the roads and the world. That is after we drill for oil, ship it, refine it, distribute it. Even today, manufacturers boast about engines with 40% efficiency in ideal conditions, which still translates to a meager 20-30% in real world driving. Looking at efficiency alone is not enough. > They're simply so much…

> more expensive than an ICE The (relevant) comparison was H2 versus BEVs — ie comparing decarbonized solutions apples-to-apples. I have edited to make that more clear. > why not pursue hydrogen investment as a possible alternative? Because hydrogen, for all its marketing, doesn't solve the problems people have with BEVs. Better BEVs do. I see a variety of BEV motorcycles and light trucks available. The same can't be…

Neither solution is really decarbonized. It is also wrong to say only carbon leaves an ecological imprint. Recycling of batteries will be a huge logistical challenge or leave a high ecological impact itself.

Still, either a vehicle is more or less drives continuously or batteries will be the better alternative. But that is only for that sector.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#337

Post by burkaman »

rich_sasha wrote: post #331
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the article was fairly to the point: > There is a “common understanding worldwide that hydrogen should be limited to applications where it would be difficult to achieve decarbonisation with other methods”, says the report by the Tokyo-based non-profit think-tank Renewable Energy Institute (REI), but Japan has instead laid out a vision of a “hydrogen society where hydrogen is used in every sector”, while pro…

I find there is a selective black and white perception of the world. For example, renewables right now rely heavily on quick-to-dispatch gas plants - and that's fine as a stepping stone to a carbon-free future. Though the plan fo eliminating it is still vapourware - maybe better batteries, maybe larger grids, maybe something else. But creating a hydrogen economy that somewhat relies on fossil fuels, with a clear path…

Did you read past the headline? It's not anathema because of aesthetics, it's anathema because it doesn't work. There's nothing wrong with shooting down an idea that you have studied and found to be counterproductive.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#338

Post by shagie »

numpad0 wrote: post #214
gruez wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but if they're essentially incompatible with fossil fuel ICEs, what relevance is there to this conversation? The only thing that binds them is that they combust, but there's no clear reason why fossil fuel companies would favor one technology just because it involves combustion.

They are compatible and relevant, GH2 can be fed to a gasoline ICE through a carburetor with minimal changes. New productions of existing ICE models therefore can be converted into a Hydrogen variant much easier, without redesigning the platform, or having to burn bridges with ICE and transmission factories.

... while storing a tank of atmospheric pressure liquid H2 such that you can't store it in an enclosed space and will be nearly empty if you don't run it for 17 hours and has a range of 120 miles.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#339

Post by gwbas1c »

RetpolineDrama wrote: post #335
rich_sasha wrote: post #210

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

>I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. Well, hydrogen is essentially a scam and giant energy sink. >The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage Sure, and compressed hydrogen is a terrible battery >Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. H…

I should add that a lot of the pushing happens from Toyota's CEO. He really thinks electric cars are a fad, and as a result has directly advocated within Japan's government for hydrogen and hybrids.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#340

Post by eldaisfish »

schiffern wrote: post #298
flavius29663 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to work around those limitations, basically removing the "very small and very reactive" part of hydrogen. You can bind it with Nitrogen to gen ammonia - which is till very dangerous, but much easier to contain or work with. The problem with H2, ammonia, biofuels and other synthetic fuels is not that they have some limitations, it's that they are not accepted by the green energy dogma. Some green energy…

The problem isn't "dogma," it's inefficiency. Throwing energy away is counterproductive, and Energy-to-Hydrogen-to-Energy throws away lots of it. If there were no alternative long-term storage plans this might be acceptable, but that's simply not the case. If you're using hydrogen to smelt steel or make ammonia fertilizer, then there's no energy loss (beyond what's needed to decarbonize petrochemicals anyway). The ar…

Isn't the whole point of cheap and plentiful renewable energy that inefficiencies in processes like this are irrelevant?

Why would long-term storage matter if wind and solar can produce so much energy that we cannot feasibly consume it all? What other long-term energy storage plans are there right now?

I would not write off fuel stations just yet. There may well be a future where some renewable fuel powers vehicles.

Post reply on HN