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Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

hydrogeninsight.com

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Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#211
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery based technology requires rare earth minerals which only a few countries control from what I understand. It is also not feasible due to weight to ship batteries to transfer power, you can only use them near the power source, is that not correct? Desalination is desparately needed, one byproduct is hydrogen: https://scitechdaily.com/efficient-seawater-desalination-and... Solutions that solve multiple problems…

EV batteries don't actually contain rare-earth metals (but fuel-cells and catalytic converters in ICE cars do). Some types of electric motors use them (in the permanent magnets), which is where a lot of the confusion probably comes from.

Electric cars are one thing I disagree with after driving one. I trally think sustainable public transport is ideal for day to day urban tranport needs and charging cars for any longer than 5min in a long roadtrip is not pleasant. But even if EVs are the right approach, hydrogen hybrids that convert hydrogen to battery stored energy or plain hydrogen powered cars where you fill them up like gas make more sense and are less disruptive to existing infra and consumer desires. Just one small example: I don't see a car charging solution for the majority urban people that live in apartments anytime in the near future. I will never sit 45min on a good day or scramble to find a free charging station in random neighborhoods again! Or be stranded because the battery level display doesn't consider X miles means steep winding mountain roads.

Let's not make a religion out of energy sources.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#212
Here is an interesting but sad documentary from 2020. (1h40m).

It addresses the concerns about hydrogen.

"Michael Moore presents Planet of the Humans, a documentary that dares to say what no one else will — that we are losing the battle to stop climate change on planet earth because we are following leaders who have taken us down the wrong road — selling out the green movement to wealthy interests and corporate America. This film is the wake-up call to the reality we are afraid to face: that in the midst of a human-caused extinction event, the environmental movement’s answer is to push for techno-fixes and band-aids. It's too little, too late. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#213
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storing hydrogen is substantially harder than storing stuff like methane, or CO2, or even O2. Hydrogen's atoms are so small they try to pass through the crystalline lattice of metals, making the hydrogen-enriched layer which is more fragile [1]. Your regular polymer hoses are much more permeable to hydrogen. Hydrogen gas burns with entirely infrared flame, not visible to human eyes [2]. Hydrogen, even highly compress…

Which is why the current proposals to significantly expand the global per annum hydrogen production via green solar hydrogen production are looking to transport Ammonia (Three Hydrogens and a Nitrogen) across the planet for use in large baseload generators. Less storage problems, more options (higly compressable gas, or pure liquid, or "liquor" (dissolved)), and no mucking about with fuel cells. Just straight up move…

What's the benefit of ammonia vs. turning hydrogen into methane via carbon capture?

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#214
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a Hydrogen ICE. BMW even leased 100 of them about 15 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

Right, but if they're essentially incompatible with fossil fuel ICEs, what relevance is there to this conversation? The only thing that binds them is that they combust, but there's no clear reason why fossil fuel companies would favor one technology just because it involves combustion.

They are compatible and relevant, GH2 can be fed to a gasoline ICE through a carburetor with minimal changes.

New productions of existing ICE models therefore can be converted into a Hydrogen variant much easier, without redesigning the platform, or having to burn bridges with ICE and transmission factories.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#215
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. They are market leaders in hybrid cars, but have been surpassed in all electric. So they're not a fossil fuel company but their interests are aligned.

It's less that they're committed to keeping the ICE, and more that they've seen that the market has passed them by with the push toward full-electric (I suspect they thought we'd be doing hybrid ICE-electric for much longer, which they're very good at). Hydrogen is their bet on being in on the ground floor of the Next Big Thing.

> the market has passed them by

Sorry? Pure EVs are still below 15% of new sales in almost all major markets. Sure it's growing quickly but it's far from certain it won't peak at around 25%.

A lot of people will probably re-evaluate their options in the next few years, where it looks like prices for charging stations will go up (no more credit-financed hypergrowth) and in some markets home electricity prices will stay high.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#216
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storing hydrogen is substantially harder than storing stuff like methane, or CO2, or even O2. Hydrogen's atoms are so small they try to pass through the crystalline lattice of metals, making the hydrogen-enriched layer which is more fragile [1]. Your regular polymer hoses are much more permeable to hydrogen. Hydrogen gas burns with entirely infrared flame, not visible to human eyes [2]. Hydrogen, even highly compress…

Which is why the current proposals to significantly expand the global per annum hydrogen production via green solar hydrogen production are looking to transport Ammonia (Three Hydrogens and a Nitrogen) across the planet for use in large baseload generators. Less storage problems, more options (higly compressable gas, or pure liquid, or "liquor" (dissolved)), and no mucking about with fuel cells. Just straight up move…

This. Is there even one power2anythingelse that does not have hydrogen as its first step? Hydrogen storage will be important, as the input queue for whatever step comes next so that only the hydrolysis capacity has to be scaled for being able to take in supply peaks and idling the rest of the day/week/year. But hydrogen storage won't be involved at all anywhere in transportation or distribution of energy (with a few possible exceptions in large very high energy density requirement applications, I wouldn't completely rule out hydrogen aircraft being less infeasible than e-fuel powered aviation at scale)

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#217

I find it weird how hostile to hydrogen the "renewable energy gang" is. The story of how renewables take over the world and displace fossil fuels and nuclear totally relies on storage, in some cases seasonal storage, IE overproducing in summer and holding on to the energy til the end of winter. Does hydrogen work for it? Well, maybe, it could, there are unresolved issues but hey we are trying to do science here. It's…

Hydrogen is a less efficient energy store than a battery, requires high pressure systems, leaks are dangerously explosive, distributing it is more difficult than petrol or electricity. It has applications, but in general, its often significantly worse than any other greener alternative.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#218
post #119

Hydrogen is 100% an attempt by fossil fuel companies to remain relevant in a "green energy" world. The primary source for hydrogen would be from methane in natural gas, and they could then sell this as a "zero pollution fuel" while continuing their non-renewable energy business as normal. If you read between the lines and look at the companies involved, they're always linked to fossil fuel companies directly or indir…

These few legitimate use cases should not be dismissed though, from the perspective of sizing an energy grid: for example reducing iron ore with hydrogen rather than coal works out to about one nuclear reactor for one furnace. No idea for chemical feedstock, but it's likely to also be huge. I don't think anyone pushing for hydrogen in cars in Japan has done even a back-of-the-envelope calculation of how many nuclear…

> behind each wind turbine field there is a very real gas turbine or lignite power plant

But isn't it still better to be using wind turbines 75% of the time when it's windy, and gas/coal only 25% of the time when it's not? Surely even without adequate battery storage that's an improvement?

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#219
Michael Liebreich's clean hydrogen ladder is a good reference here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-mic...

It ranks hydrogen use cases by their economic feasibility. The core issue in Japan: they are focusing on things with the least economic potential at the bottom of the ladder and they are doing it with dirty grey hydrogen even.

It's a double fail. Basically they are expending more carbon to magically become cleaner. Which isn't working for obvious reasons and quite obviously so. And then they are using that hydrogen for the least economical use cases. It's not an energy strategy but a let's bail out our car manufacturers strategy.

This article is stating the obvious: this isn't working. Not even a little bit. There's nothing there. Hydrogen cars are a fantasy. Nobody is buying them and even the world's largest hydrogen cheer leader (Toyota) of these things is barely producing and selling any. And as reluctant as they are to produce and sell battery electric vehicles, they still sell more of those than hydrogen cars.

Hydrogen for domestic use also ranks at the bottom in the hydrogen ladder for very good reasons. Yes you can do it. But it's just stupidly inefficient in terms of hydrogen generation and transport losses.

These are not problems you can just wave away with some innovation magic. There is no magical solution just around the corner that will make all of this go away and improve things by 10x. The issues are pretty fundamental and have to do with hydrogen just having a very low energy density by volume (it's the first element in the periodic table), energy conversions having a cost (second law of thermodynamics), and the bonds between hydrogen and carbon or oxygen atoms being very strong.

It takes more energy to break those chemical bonds than you get back in the form of hydrogen. There's a theoretical maximum efficiency to that. Once you have hydrogen, you have to convert it again to do something useful with it. That too has a maximum theoretical efficiency. These inefficiencies multiply. What happens if you multiply two fractions? You get a smaller fraction. Compressing and cooling also takes energy. And if you introduce conversion to ammonia or some other susbtance, that's another conversion, which is lossy. That just multiplies the problem.

So, that means hydrogen should be prioritized for those use cases where you can minimize the losses. Anything involving transporting hydrogen over long distances is a problem. Because of the volumetric density. It's just not very efficient. You need to move a lot of volume of it. And it's a tough substance to contain. Leaky valves, boiling of liquid hydrogen to keep it cool, etc. The losses accumulate rapidly. And even when you contain that, you need to ship about 18x more of it in compressed gas form to match a single tanker of petrol or about 3x in liquid form (cooled to near absolute zero). Compression and cooling take energy btw.

Because of all that, the vast majority of hydrogen produced right now, is produced and consumed on site. Mostly for things at the top of the hydrogen ladder like fertilizer production or use in various chemical processes.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#220
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a car company committed to keeping the internal combustion engine. They are market leaders in hybrid cars, but have been surpassed in all electric. So they're not a fossil fuel company but their interests are aligned.

This. They've been fighting the EV transition tooth and nails, it really needs to be called out. I mean, how nice an EV would that new Insight of theirs just released have been? The design is gorgeous. Instead we get yet another hybrid, which makes sense in a good few use cases I guess - primarily related to charger availability - but just puts them further behind on the EV development experience curve. Edit: And the…

I’m curious how the calculations work here. I know that any individual battery electric car is better in terms of GHG emissions than any individual hybrid car. However, given the limited number of battery electric cars, and the limited production, battery electric cars will remain the minority of all cars at least until the end of this decade (probably even longer). Now my question is, en masse, since the production of hybrid cars are a lot more capable then battery electric, are we not better off (in terms of total GHG emissions) with as many hybrid cars as we could get? That is, don’t hybrid cars shave more GHG emissions just by the shear number of them?

Of course I believe this is a moot question because we could save way more by focusing on public transit, and simply have fewer cars. After all: battery electric are more efficient than hydrogen, which are more efficient then hybrids, which are more efficient than ICE but transporting 20 people in 15 battery electric cars comes nowhere close to the efficiency of transporting these same 20 people in a single ICE bus.

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