Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

hydrogeninsight.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 454 posts

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#191

Post by nine_k »

mordymoop wrote: post #169
amluto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

> Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically less efficient than using a battery This is true —- but the total quantity of battery storage potential is utterly dwarfed by the storage potential for gas, in subsurface storage reservoirs and salt caverns. You can store days worth of energy in batteries; you can store a winter’s worth of energy in gas. It’s not a matter of effi…

Storing hydrogen is substantially harder than storing stuff like methane, or CO2, or even O2.

Hydrogen's atoms are so small they try to pass through the crystalline lattice of metals, making the hydrogen-enriched layer which is more fragile [1]. Your regular polymer hoses are much more permeable to hydrogen.

Hydrogen gas burns with entirely infrared flame, not visible to human eyes [2].

Hydrogen, even highly compressed, is still very lightweight, so storing significant amounts requires either very high pressures, or liquefaction. Liquid hydrogen requires an uncomfortably low temperature of 20K, but starts to freeze into solid state at 14K.

Hydrogen is the most efficient rocket fuel, there's no denying. For all other fuel applications, it's pretty problematic.

[1]: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1727338

[2]: https://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff1997/ps1.html

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#192

Post by defrost »

nine_k wrote: post #191
mordymoop wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically less efficient than using a battery This is true —- but the total quantity of battery storage potential is utterly dwarfed by the storage potential for gas, in subsurface storage reservoirs and salt caverns. You can store days worth of energy in batteries; you can store a winter’s worth of energy in gas. It’s not a matter of effi…

Storing hydrogen is substantially harder than storing stuff like methane, or CO2, or even O2. Hydrogen's atoms are so small they try to pass through the crystalline lattice of metals, making the hydrogen-enriched layer which is more fragile [1]. Your regular polymer hoses are much more permeable to hydrogen. Hydrogen gas burns with entirely infrared flame, not visible to human eyes [2]. Hydrogen, even highly compress…

Which is why the current proposals to significantly expand the global per annum hydrogen production via green solar hydrogen production are looking to transport Ammonia (Three Hydrogens and a Nitrogen) across the planet for use in large baseload generators.

Less storage problems, more options (higly compressable gas, or pure liquid, or "liquor" (dissolved)), and no mucking about with fuel cells.

Just straight up movement of energy (with losses to be sure) from places with an excess of sunlight to those that are short.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#193

Post by enslavedrobot »

amluto wrote: post #142
TheRealPomax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one? Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work. They have no domestic oil production, and so few coal mines as to basically be irrelevant: all their fossil fuel is imported. Anywhere else on the planet: sure, this might be another way for big fossil to push for relevancy, but in Japan's case, hydrogen would be something that they can produce thems…

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

Green hydrogen is made from electricity. The cost of green hydrogen is currently high, but it is dropping faster than pretty much any other energy storage technology. Hydrogen storage is an order of magnitude cheaper (or more) than any other tech. It is expensive because of the cost of electrolyzers/fuel-cells that convert between electricity and H2. These costs are dropping fast at efficiencies of 80%+ along with the cost of solar and wind. If you project the cost declines into the future the economics of producing hydrogen at remote solar wind farms, generating hydrogen, and transporting the H2 by tanker or pipeline are compelling.

Abu Dhabi already sells solar electricity for 1.35 cents/kWh. That price will drop by at 3-5x as solar reaches maturity. Natural gas plants sell power for ~6cents/kWh. Green hydrogen will have at least 5.5cents/kWh ($1.80/kg) of wiggle room to generate returns.

Many people consider batteries to be superior to hydrogen for all business cases. This isn't true for applications that need more than ~10 hours or so of capacity. Sub 10 hours is a huge market and encompasses almost all transportation, but there is a vast market for storage beyond 10 hours.

The Achilles heel of batteries is that the power of the battery and the energy stored by the battery are linked. An Li battery can easily discharge itself in one hour. If you want 10 hours of storage you need to buy a battery that could deliver 10x the power you're asking it to. This dramatically increases the cost and sheer tonnage of materials required to make the required system. Green hydrogen systems only require equipment that can deliver power at 1x the requirement with a storage tank that holds 10 hours of fuel. This means that there is always a crossover point where hydrogen becomes cheaper than batteries. My projection for the future is that this number will be around 10-20 hours.

This makes hydrogen the best choice for many applications and is the reason why lots of governments are into the idea. Transportation is only around ~20% of the energy we use, much of the rest might come from renewable hydrogen in the future.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#194

Post by cbmuser »

cbkeller wrote: post #12

I'll go one further: Hydrogen does nothing. It's a bad battery. After following this for more than a decade (starting with a bit of undergrad research on possible alternative fuel cell electrode materials -- albeit not a field that I'm in any way involved with any more), it just feels like there's been very little progress on fuel cells, or on storage and transport. Meanwhile, progress on Li-based batteries has been…

Japan’s hydrogen strategy is based upon the high-temperature reactor HTGR in Ibaraki prefecture.

This reactor doesn’t use electricity to produce H2 but high temperature hydrolysis.

See: https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#195

Post by cbmuser »

jiggawatts wrote: post #31

Hydrogen is 100% an attempt by fossil fuel companies to remain relevant in a "green energy" world. The primary source for hydrogen would be from methane in natural gas, and they could then sell this as a "zero pollution fuel" while continuing their non-renewable energy business as normal. If you read between the lines and look at the companies involved, they're always linked to fossil fuel companies directly or indir…

»The primary source for hydrogen would be from methane in natural gas, and they could then sell this as a "zero pollution fuel" while continuing their non-renewable energy business as normal.«

No, that’s wrong. They’re planning to produce their hydrogen from high-temperature reactors like the HTGR in Ibaraki prefecture.

See: https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#196

Post by cbmuser »

amluto wrote: post #142
TheRealPomax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know Toyota was a fossil fuel company, or was owned by one? Japan is uniquely trying to make this thing work. They have no domestic oil production, and so few coal mines as to basically be irrelevant: all their fossil fuel is imported. Anywhere else on the planet: sure, this might be another way for big fossil to push for relevancy, but in Japan's case, hydrogen would be something that they can produce thems…

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

»Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically less efficient than using a battery, and car commutes in Japan are on the short side, so huge batteries wouldn’t be as necessary.«

Which is why Japan is favoring high-temperature hydrolysis here using high-temperature nuclear reactors.

See: https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#197

Post by cbmuser »

enslavedrobot wrote: post #193
amluto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

Green hydrogen is made from electricity. The cost of green hydrogen is currently high, but it is dropping faster than pretty much any other energy storage technology. Hydrogen storage is an order of magnitude cheaper (or more) than any other tech. It is expensive because of the cost of electrolyzers/fuel-cells that convert between electricity and H2. These costs are dropping fast at efficiencies of 80%+ along with th…

Japan plans to make hydrogen using high-temperature nuclear reactors (HTGR or HTTR).

See: https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#198

Post by throwaway2037 »

VintageCool wrote: post #189
amluto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

Japan's plan has been to import hydrogen. Probably from Australia. Nuclear is unpopular since Fukushima, and Japan doesn't have great renewable resources. The country is extremely land constrained -- and although the "renewables require too much land" argument is silly on the American Great Plains, it does hinder Japan. Additionally, the solar irradiance is mediocre, and their offshore wind would have to be truly flo…

If you can manufacture pure hydrogen by hydrolysis from Australia solar power, then they should go the next step and create methane (CH4). If you can extract carbon from CO2, that would be a crazy good win. (Probably horribly energy inefficient, but that is the future, I guess.) Anywhere with huge deserts and access to ports can become rich on this path: India, Chile, Australia, North Africa, Middle East. (China has big deserts, but very far from ports.)

People are talking a lot about batteries in this HN discussion, but there are industries that are so much simpler to run on burning gas/coal (steel, petro-chemical, etc.). Japan has massive heavy industry, similar to Germany, that 100% depends upon imported methane. Someone also told me (not sure if true) that the infra required for hydrogen is much more expensive than methane because it is "more leaky". Thus, equipment tolerances are way higher for pure H2 vs CH4.

Last: The "we don't like nuclear" view will only last until the next energy crisis. The current PM (Kishida) is already talking about re-activation. Yes, there will be billions to spend to upgrade existing reactors, but Japan never shies away from infra spending! It doesn't get much attention in the media, but plenty of infra (bridges, tunnels, etc.) was upgraded after the 2014 earthquake.

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#199

Post by cbmuser »

VintageCool wrote: post #189
amluto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Hydrogen is not an energy source — it’s a way to store energy and make it portable. So Japan could import hydrogen (which is not obviously any better than importing LNG or oil), or Japan could make it from domestic or imported energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, imported oil, imported LNG, etc). Turning electricity into hydrogen and then into motive power for a car is dramatically les…

Japan's plan has been to import hydrogen. Probably from Australia. Nuclear is unpopular since Fukushima, and Japan doesn't have great renewable resources. The country is extremely land constrained -- and although the "renewables require too much land" argument is silly on the American Great Plains, it does hinder Japan. Additionally, the solar irradiance is mediocre, and their offshore wind would have to be truly flo…

Japan’s government actually just decided to revitalize nuclear power and support among the population is growing.

And, FWIW, Japan plans to use high-temperature nuclear reactors to produce hydrogen with very high efficiency.

See: https://www.jaea.go.jp/04/o-arai/en/research/research_03.htm...

Re: Japan's hydrogen strategy does nothing for decarbonisation: study

#200

Post by enslavedrobot »

stephen_g wrote: post #177
_8j50 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery based technology requires rare earth minerals which only a few countries control from what I understand. It is also not feasible due to weight to ship batteries to transfer power, you can only use them near the power source, is that not correct? Desalination is desparately needed, one byproduct is hydrogen: https://scitechdaily.com/efficient-seawater-desalination-and... Solutions that solve multiple problems…

EV batteries don't actually contain rare-earth metals (but fuel-cells and catalytic converters in ICE cars do). Some types of electric motors use them (in the permanent magnets), which is where a lot of the confusion probably comes from.

Fuel cells based in anionic exchange membranes (AEM) don't require rare metal catalysts. They run on nickel-iron catalysts. Latest gen systems meet or exceed the capabilities of proton exchange systems (that require pt or ir).

Also, since anionic membranes aren't made of complex fluoropolymers they can be synthesized much more cheaply. Scaling to under 100$/kg. 1 kg of material is around enough to make a megawatt fuel cell unit. Batteries are definitely going to capture the entire wheeled vehicle market but hydrogen tech is set to take a large fraction of the overall energy market.

Post reply on HN