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Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

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Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'd say they both put all their eggs in one basket & let that basket deteriorate. Show of hands - people who feel google search has improved in the last 5/10 years vs people who feel it's gotten demonstrably worse? So they have a monopoly product that is something like a 2 sided market (advertisers & search users) where both sides hate using it..

>Show of hands - people who feel google search has improved in the last 5/10 years vs people who feel it's gotten demonstrably worse? I mean, personally I think this is very likely true. My feeling is that it's the web itself which has gotten demonstrably worse. Diagnosing the reasons for that is a more interesting problem.

"Search hasn't gotten worse, the web has" is like the Simpsons meme "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the children who are wrong."

The only score that matters is the one in real life, in the game you choose to play. If it gets harder, you need to get better.

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#292
post #118

Seems like Google leadership is freaking out. Also sounds like they really believe the whole founder-hero mythology if they think that Page-Brin can save the company. I don’t know how Google could be saved but perhaps having grateful and happy employees that would just build things in their 20% time might have been a better strategy. A truly revolutionary step would have been to buck the layoffs trend. But of course…

Former Googler here. 20% Time is a myth and always was. Yes, occasionally someone would talk about "their 20% time" but it was rare, and usually just meant "spending a few hours on something else." Admittedly, once in a while someone really did spend 20% of their time on something else, and management was not allowed to complain. Once, in about 2006-07, I was at a table with about 8 software engineers and asked for a…

How much of that is googles fault and how much of that is that it’s hard to have a good idea for a personal project and follow through with it?

When I was in my 20s all my friends (young single kid less, so plenty of free time) would often TALK about wanting to do a project but few ever did.

I wouldn’t be surprised if for most people the marginal sense of accomplishment and meaning is just higher by working on their day job (which is already cush) than trying to hack a random idea together.

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#293
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that bothers me most is that background services are now management by some AI thingy, in order to 'optimize battery usage'. Ergo, background services are now unreliable.

As an example, Facebook Messenger has become almost completely unusable on Android phones because the OS keeps killing the process despite the user specifically telling it to don't. I'm not 100% convinced that this is by accident.

I thought phones had hooks for notifications n stuff regardless of if the app was open. Shouldn’t that cover most things you care about in the background? Am I wrong or is this different for Android (I’ve only used apple)?

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t need to believe it, they just need to believe that other people will believe in it. Even CEOs can get a lot of pushback and since they’re looking to do drastic changes it helps to get as much buy in as possible.

Simon Sinek has a really great point about companies endlessly pandering to shareholders, basically being equivalent to sports teams endlessly pandering to fans. The objective of a truly good coach/leader should be to successfully accomplish a goal, and often that will require making some portion of your "fans" unhappy. If coaches acted the way modern CEOs do, they'd only ever run one play

I blame the short-term thinking for this. Everyone wants to see constant progress, there has to be growth every quarter, otherwise the stock goes down, investors are unhappy, CEO has to explain himself and promise quick recovery.

It happens in sports, too - a new coach is hired, and they get kicked out after a year, because the team didn't show much progress. But often it just time to work on fundamentals, build something new under the hood, maybe introduce changes in training/org structure/hiring, and only once it's done the progress can be visible. But fans/investors/owners always want it NOW.

What are examples of large companies that said "if we want to be on top in 10 years, we have to undergo a transformation, and stop thinking of short-term gains"? Meta is the only example that comes to my mind (though I believe their strategy won't really work, so not the best example).

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'd say they both put all their eggs in one basket & let that basket deteriorate. Show of hands - people who feel google search has improved in the last 5/10 years vs people who feel it's gotten demonstrably worse? So they have a monopoly product that is something like a 2 sided market (advertisers & search users) where both sides hate using it..

>Show of hands - people who feel google search has improved in the last 5/10 years vs people who feel it's gotten demonstrably worse? I mean, personally I think this is very likely true. My feeling is that it's the web itself which has gotten demonstrably worse. Diagnosing the reasons for that is a more interesting problem.

> My feeling is that it's the web itself which has gotten demonstrably worse. Diagnosing the reasons for that is a more interesting problem.

I think it’s a little tricky separating the two since Google has so much influence over the web. A lot of the parts of the web which have gotten worse were due to decisions they made to do things like cut ad revenue for normal organic content, declining to punish or even rewarding blackhat SEO, pushing AMP, shuttering Reader, etc. That sold a lot of ads at the time and people said it was needed to counter Facebook but it’s left them more vulnerable now.

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#296
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Google gives you the source. ChatGPT does not.

It’s funny because when I was in high school the argument was always “books, published articles and other print media are actual source material, Google doesn’t give you that”

[0] scholar.google.com

Google gives you sources, determining reputability is your task.

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved off Spotify to escape AI. It was good at first, but I started to feel like I was being pushed into a rut with music, that I’d lost all autonomy when it came to finding new music for myself. I wonder if the novelty of a lot of consumer AI will wear off for others in the long run.

> that I’d lost all autonomy when it came to finding new music for myself Music discovery is the best feature for me in spotify. Especially if you listen to more unpopular genres like french/german techno, old school hard trance. I found plenty of great artists there which have <5k monthly plays.

I wonder whether I got in a bad A/B test group or something - I tried Spotify after Rdio shut down but no matter how much training I gave it the recommendations kept going back to the same pop albums they were promoting. It was very weird to see after reading all of that echonest guy’s blog posts about the cool things they were doing.

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#298
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that I’d lost all autonomy when it came to finding new music for myself Music discovery is the best feature for me in spotify. Especially if you listen to more unpopular genres like french/german techno, old school hard trance. I found plenty of great artists there which have <5k monthly plays.

I wonder whether I got in a bad A/B test group or something - I tried Spotify after Rdio shut down but no matter how much training I gave it the recommendations kept going back to the same pop albums they were promoting. It was very weird to see after reading all of that echonest guy’s blog posts about the cool things they were doing.

Somebody I know also had this issue at one point. In his case it was girlfriend which also used his account (but apparently without creating playlists or hearting anything, idk).

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before it got choked off I had started using chatGPT for all of my searches. For code examples it blows google out of the water. For learning esoteric things (like congressional procedures etc.) quickly, it is without peer. I think Google's founders offered their take years ago...no one listened then.

ChatGPT is only "truthy", however. The algorithm will happily give you information that sounds true, but is actually wrong. And if it's wrong even 1% of time, you will still need some way to verify its claims.

Agree with everything you said, but I want to dig into why I don't find the critique compelling.

In short, I see a need for us all to inherently distrust anything single thing we read -- everything needs to be verified and checked out across multiple (hopefully diverse) sources of information before it can be considered "truth" in any sense. I do develop trust in certain sources over time, but meta-sources like an AI or a search engine don't get this treatment because their scope is too broad. As an example, I tend to trust folks like Fabien Sanglard[0], Eric Goldman[1], and Adam Langley[2].

Example: over on the Morrowind subreddit a few years ago, an artist had been painting landscapes of the game "Morrowind" (oil on canvas, IIRC), and when he went to print them as posters to sell to fans, the site he wanted to print them on warned him that printing his own paintings of vistas from Morrowind was copyright infringement (it's not). He came to the Morrowind subreddit for help because he'd been actively misled.

Sites like plagiarism.org[3] confidently say false things:

> But can words and ideas really be stolen?

> According to U.S. law, the answer is yes. The expression of original ideas is considered intellectual property and is protected by copyright laws, just like original inventions. Almost all forms of expression fall under copyright protection as long as they are recorded in some way (such as a book or a computer file).

This is confidently incorrect in a couple of different ways. It might seem like incompetence (and may be), but it's worth noting that plagiarism.org is actually run by TurnItIn, which profits from people not really understanding how copyright works.

Similar example (I tend to look into copyright, trademark, and patent issues a lot): I got into a discussion with another HNer about IP law, and they cited an article written by an actual lawyer[4] on a site called "The National Law Review" that's simply wrong about IP law to defend their position. It's tragic, because we've built this sort of cargo cult around "citation, please?" but then all-too-often don't keep our critical thinking skills engaged as we evaluate the source.

This is true all over. I've read HN daily for more than 10 years. Not only does every comment need scrutiny (even if stated confidently), but most stories linked on the front page do as well. It's not just blog posts or opinion pieces; some scientific studies that are posted get torn apart in the comments, to enough of a degree that, after cross-checking, I tend to think the study itself is deeply flawed.

And there are numerous stories about how Google's Quick Answers confidently give the wrong answer, as highlighted in 2017 by the WSJ[5].

I'm not saying accuracy doesn't matter, but I feel the "ChatGPT is confidently wrong" needs more context or comparative analysis around it before it becomes a compelling argument, since "confidently wrong" applies to search engines and humans as well. I haven't seen any in-depth studies on this, but would love to.

[0]: https://fabiensanglard.net/

[1]: https://blog.ericgoldman.org/

[2]: https://www.imperialviolet.org/

[3]: https://www.plagiarism.org/article/what-is-plagiarism

[4]: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/enforce-your-intellectu...

[5]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/googles-featured-answers-aim-to...

Re: Google calls in help from Larry Page and Sergey Brin for A.I. fight

#300
post #104
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just give me a toggle setting for stop at 80% full." And another toggle for 100% when I do need full charge, because I go somewhere. Why such basic functionality is not avaiable, is a bit frustrating.

dunno, there is the one-time toggle in the notification area for 100% in my pixel and there is a toggle to turn off these adaptive features in settings.

It is a feature you can easily turn off on iPhones too, it isn't hidden or obscured under bajillion menus at all. The grandparent comment just didn't bother looking for it.

Settings > Battery > Battery Health and Charging. Set "Optimize Battery Charging" toggle to off, and the adaptive charging is gone.

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