There's no part of AI that is being swallowed up by copyright. AI companies can ask for permission if they want to train their models on other people's works. It's not that hard, various image hosting sites have already added an opt-in/opt-out toggle to their services. Sites might even get away with using this stuff as compensation for free hosting. The fact of the matter is that the AI companies don't want to ask fo…
AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
531–540 of 705 posts
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#532Earlier quoted context omitted.
many of these clauses are legally unenforceable because you can violate them without infringing on any of the rights that copyright law grants exclusively to the copyright holder (who can license them)
> many of these clauses are legally unenforceable because you can violate them without infringing on any of the rights that copyright law grants exclusively to the copyright holder (who can license them) That's news to Microsoft[1], who's shared source and various NDA licenses for the source code already has clauses restricting what you can do with it. [1] I think the problem is that the pro-AI arguments are coming f…
unfortunately you have descended from simply making vaguely ignorant comments to attacking me, which indicates that further engagement with you is unlikely to be useful to anyone
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#533This whole legal debate exists because of ambiguity. Open source licences were written before large-scale training became a thing. Rather than settle this ambiguity on court, why not remove it altogether? Personally I think we should be adding new clauses to licences that either explicitly approve or prohibit the use of code for training of models.
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#534Earlier quoted context omitted.
AI companies can ask for permission if they want to train their models on other people's works Do you ask for permission when you train your mind on copyrighted books? Or observe paintings? Or listen to music? Do you ask for permission when you get new ideas from HN that aren't your own? Humans are constantly ingesting gobs of "copyrighted" insights that they eventually remix into their own creations without necessar…
Moral principles apply to living things. The living things in question are people at big companies training models to sell them as services from behind paywalls.
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#535Earlier quoted context omitted.
AI companies can ask for permission if they want to train their models on other people's works Do you ask for permission when you train your mind on copyrighted books? Or observe paintings? Or listen to music? Do you ask for permission when you get new ideas from HN that aren't your own? Humans are constantly ingesting gobs of "copyrighted" insights that they eventually remix into their own creations without necessar…
> Do you ask for permission when you train your mind on copyrighted books? […] Humans are constantly ingesting gobs of “copyrighted” insights This comment fundamentally and dangerously misunderstands Copyright Law. Insights are not copyrighted, nor are they copyrightable. Copyright law controls who gets to distribute a specific “fixation” or performance of work. It is not, and never was about preventing the spread of…
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#536> "The Co-Pilot suit is ostensibly being brought in the name of all open source programmers. Yes, that’s right, people crusading in the name of open source–a movement intended to promote freedom to use source code–are now claiming that a neural network, designed to save programmers the onus of re-inventing the wheel when they need code to perform programming tasks, is de facto unlawful." Maybe people wouldn't be so a…
Co-Pilot generated code is based on works that come from a variety of licenses. The generated code therefore must be licensed according to the license the code it was derived from used. In many cases these licenses are not compatible and the generated code, being derived from copyrighted and licenses works, is in violation of copyright law.
But another interpretation is that the generic structure of the code was learned from the works, which is not copywritable. And that generic structure was used to synthesize new code, in much the same way a human who had seen a pattern in a proprietary codebase years ago was able to use that pattern in their own code. I am not a lawyer but most licenses do not prohibit that in my experience. More often in my experience this is what is happening with generative ai.
The tricky bit is that the ai can probably do both in the eyes of copywrite law, since the boundary seems to be very context dependent and existing models don’t have any concept of how much you need to compress and forget the specific details so that it is seen as novel by the courts. The model can memorize significant parts of some inputs despite not having nearly enough space for memorizing the input set, so the first interpretation is possible even if it isn’t the typical output. There isn’t really a kind of “courts will see this as novel” regularizer and there might need to be?
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#537Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Copyright exists to encourage the creation of more art and to progress science. AI is clearly a helpful step in that direction. Humans learn from others' works. Should we make that illegal too? I find it astonishing that people continue to make this argument. A machine is owned by someone, a human is not. Why should the law treat machines the same way as a human? Sounds like some corporate flim-flam to me.
Copyright is not about protecting people. The purpose of copyright is: > To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; The purpose of copyright is not to protect the authors, it is to promote the progress of science and art. The current situation for AI image generation is pretty much the onl…
You end up with billion dollar corporations gatekeeping this technology either way (who else has the capital to best train the models?). This isn’t about the little guy.
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#538Earlier quoted context omitted.
AI companies can ask for permission if they want to train their models on other people's works Do you ask for permission when you train your mind on copyrighted books? Or observe paintings? Or listen to music? Do you ask for permission when you get new ideas from HN that aren't your own? Humans are constantly ingesting gobs of "copyrighted" insights that they eventually remix into their own creations without necessar…
> Do you ask for permission when you train your mind on copyrighted books? […] Humans are constantly ingesting gobs of “copyrighted” insights This comment fundamentally and dangerously misunderstands Copyright Law. Insights are not copyrighted, nor are they copyrightable. Copyright law controls who gets to distribute a specific “fixation” or performance of work. It is not, and never was about preventing the spread of…
A silly example. Making GPT write a rap battle between Keynes and Mises goes beyond a performative remix, it is transformational work, nothing is copied explicitly. If a human were to write it that would not violate copyright.
I think that to tackle this we need a new lens other than copyright in the long term.
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#539I'd be far more amenable to corporations training their AI on my content of those exact same corporations hadn't spent the last two decades aggressively defending their own IP with DRM and multi-million dollar lawsuits. So they can go fuck themselves, or alternatively they can make their super advanced AI reproduce my copyright statement and license every time it copies my code. Which shouldn't be difficult at all.
Re: AI is in danger of being swallowed up by copyright law
#540Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don’t need permission. If you want to prove your data was used to train an AI, the onus is on you to prove it. Good luck. The AI who follow the law strictly will be at a disadvantage to those that do not.
> the onus is on you to prove it which would be easy during a law suit - the process of discovery means you get to check out the training dataset. The allegation isn't that the AI trainers are hiding, but that what AI trainers are doing _itself_ constitutes copyright violation. AKA, they want the right to use the works to train an ai model to be a right that must be explicitly granted.