Live data from Hacker News

ECC RAM should be a human right

dmitrybrant.com

41–50 of 146 posts

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

totally embarrassingly naive question : why bother overclocking ?

Some people prefer to trade off stability for a slight performance improvement. With modern hardware I don't think it's worth it to be honest. I want my computer to work day in and day out even if it means a 2% lower score in some benchmark.

Yeah personally I’d rather build a PC with efficient power supply and quiet, high performance cooling. No gaudy LEDs either, just a plain case. I want it to be very stable and reliable and unobtrusive.

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#43

Commodity PCs back in the 80s and 90s didn't have error correction but they did have parity (iirc). Correction requires three extra bits per byte compared to parity only carrying one extra bit per byte. I recall around 1990 you could get your 30pin SIMs as 9-bit (parity) or 8-bit (no-parity), and virtually all of the PCs at the time wanted the 9 bit modules. Parity can't correct errors, but at least it can cause an e…

On current memory, parity and correction get applied to the entire bus width. So with parity taking one bit, and correction taking log2(width) bits, it only requires 7-8 bits to apply both of them to an entire memory channel. (DDR4 has 64/72 bit channels, and DDR5 has 32/40 bit channels)

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#44
post #25

Latest Intel desktop CPUs (i.e. i9-13900KF) supports ECC with the W680 chipset.

It's worth keeping in mind that the chipset has zero involvement in ECC. The CPU is directly attached to the memory slots. They're using the chipset as an expensive dongle.

They do it with rear I/O too. Motherboards with anything but workstation or flagship consumer chipsets typically have an anemic port selection, which is silly because for many half the reason to choose building a desktop over buying a laptop is to be able to plug in a lot of stuff without a bunch of hubs/docks/etc.

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the main reasons I buy Xeon desktops is the ECC. With 128 GB of memory, and 1 bitflip/GB/year average error rate, it seems too risky to not use ECC for production work.

Real world numbers are closer to 1 bitflip/GB/hour than year because bit flips are highly correlated. “A large-scale study based on Google's very large number of servers was presented at the SIGMETRICS/Performance '09 conference.[6] The actual error rate found was several orders of magnitude higher than the previous small-scale or laboratory studies, with between 25,000 (2.5 × 10−11 error/bit·h) and 70,000 (7.0 × 10−…

That study is very old and is based on long-outdated DRAM tech. I suspect that DDR5 has much lower error rates.

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people prefer to trade off stability for a slight performance improvement. With modern hardware I don't think it's worth it to be honest. I want my computer to work day in and day out even if it means a 2% lower score in some benchmark.

There are also a lot of cases where you can overclock without sacrificing stability. The standard clock speed for any line of processors is simply the minimum it is tested for. But you sometimes get lucky and can get a better chip with more viable transistors. So you can boost the clock ok those and reap the benefits without any drawbacks. There are sites and services that do "binning" where they test the specific ch…

And undervolting lets a CPU/GPU boost to higher frequency for longer before hitting power/temperature limits or just use less power to hit the same performance. There's a decent chance that any given chip can be undervolted enough to make a notable difference before becoming unstable.

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#47
> It was the worst-case scenario for RAM failure: bit flip errors that get written back to the disk. I discovered that several video files that I had been editing had corrupted bits, and were no longer usable.

What a horrible failure mode! Kudos to the OP for even thinking to investigate this.

The mentioned memtest86 tool sounds quite useful - so useful, in fact, that it seems it should be part of the operating system. If my OS is perfectly willing to write corrupted memory back to disk, and it's designed to run on thousands of different OEM hardware configurations that may or may not have ECC RAM, then I would expect it to proactively monitor for faulty RAM and bitflips.

Is there a good reason why this isn't the default behavior of operating systems (maybe it is - I use Mac and don't know much about Windows)? It seems like a trivial diagnostic tool that could prevent a lot of headache. But perhaps the problem is there's no reliable test without some number of false positives, so popping a warning on the screen that your RAM appears unhealthy seems like a good way to confuse the average user. But then again, so does silently corrupting a video file.

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#48
> a multitude of bit flip errors

ECC can only report >1 bit flip per word. It can't correct it. If your memory is going bad, the chance of multiple bit failure is going to be much higher than the stray bit flip from other causes (mind you, I have 32GB ECC running right now and have seen zero bit flips over 1.5 years).

I'm not arguing against ECC. I have it and run it myself. But this blog post is an argument for ZFS and regular backups. Failures can occur at many other places than RAM. I had a drive that had corruption and I thought went bad. Turns out, bad SATA cable. A week later I upgraded from cable internet to 1Gbit fiber. My speeds were not at all what I expected. Turns out... bad ethernet cable. Lightning can strike twice I guess.

> By the way, you’d better believe that your disk(s) have all kinds of error correction schemes built into them, which work automatically and transparently.

Well...

https://twitter.com/xenadu02/status/1495693475584557056

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/sk-hynix-sabrent-rocket-ss...

https://twitter.com/bsdphk/status/1495899958960136202

Re: ECC RAM should be a human right

#50
This is just unscientific nonsense.

> Memory manufacturers assure us that desktop RAM is so reliable that it doesn’t need ECC, that the probability of bit flip events is so low that it’s not worth the extra “cost” of ECC

Yea, and they are right.

Post reply on HN