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Make up a guy

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Re: Make up a guy

#111

Post by Dudeman112 »

adastra22 wrote: post #65
rom-antics wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a frog's life more bleak and meaningless than a human's life? We can't understand animals' thoughts, but that doesn't mean they don't have them. A frog spends its time chilling in a pond and swimming all day. People pay good money for vacations where they can do exactly that. Sounds like a good life to me. If I was a frog and you turned me into a homeless guy who has to go get a job at an Amazon warehouse to a…

And getting eaten by birds. All life in nature (except of top predators like us) is harsh, brutal, and short.

Ah, but in that case would they mind it being harsh, brutal, and short? Given the configuration of their mind's hardware

On a side note, I get the impression most people just don't have a gut instinct for just how awful natural life is like for the most part

Re: Make up a guy

#112

Post by Procrastes »

codeflo wrote: post #3

I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you…

My favorite story by qntm is "There Is No Antimemetics Division"[1]. It's disturbing in a cosmic sort of way.

1. https://books.google.com/books/about/There_Is_No_Antimemetic...

Re: Make up a guy

#113

Post by roflyear »

troupe wrote: post #91
roflyear wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals are tortured today like they have never been. Animal husbandry harms the planet on a massive scale. It cannot be reduced to what you suggest.

> Animals are tortured today like they have never been I'm not sure that's true. The Old Testament has spells out that if you want to eat part of an animal, you have to kill it first which is a huge step forward in being kind to animals if hacking off part of an animal to eat while keeping it alive was something that happened enough to need a prohibition against. It wasn't that ago that Edison electrocuted an elephan…

I feel like that is a strange way to reason about something happening.

In any case, we're not talking about isolated incidents of torturing animals. Today, we keep hundreds of millions, if not over a billion, of animals in captivity just in the US. Captivity is a nice word for it, too. I encourage you to research about what that captivity looks like.

Re: Make up a guy

#114

Post by travisjungroth »

paleotrope wrote: post #97
blinding-streak wrote: post #56

Speaking of making a person.. at this startup I worked at years ago (before LinkedIn existed), it was a tiny shop and we were all maxed out time-wise. It was frustrating when we had to deal with incredibly persistent salespeople that wouldn't take no for an answer, and others that preyed on our time relentlessly for no apparent reason. So as a joke we invented a fake employee with a fake name. I think his first name…

I wonder if this is going to change with time. Most people of a certain age remember a time when answering the phone and talking to the other person was a social more. This is the social courtesy that telemarketers and scammers have been using for years now. But there's another way. Just hang up on them. I know it's considered hostile but it's just an outdated social more at this point.

I try to find this balance between recognizing the humanity of everyone I interact with and not allowing this respect to be an attack vector. Over time, I have shifted more towards ignoring salesman in front of a store, not replying to messages and hanging up on a call as being things I'm okay with doing. I don't always give courteous attention anymore. I'm fine with giving nothing ("ghosting" as the kids say) and only giving active rejection if it's really needed.

To your point, I think it will shift in a different way over time. Gen Z can't imagine hanging up on someone on the phone, they can't even imagine signaling to the other person they don't want to be on the call anymore (aka saying "goodbye"). But they don't end up on endless phone calls. They just never pick up the phone.

Have you ever been in young person's home when someone unexpectedly knocked at the door? It could be Tuesday afternoon and their whole body takes on this dread like they're realizing their life has suddenly turned into a slasher film.

I don't mean "kids these days are destroying society". They have other ways to connect than just showing up where someone lives. But I wouldn't start a business selling vacuum cleaners to the next generation of homemakers door-to-door.

Re: Make up a guy

#115

Post by solstice »

adastra22 wrote: post #62
solstice wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what you mean by "fully abandoning it" that doesn't seem to track with humans being loss-averse as has been shown in (I believe) many psychological studies. Meaning most people vastly prefer remaining at a low level than to even lose a tiny bit. The fate of a frog becoming human and then being discarded shortly afterwards would be judged to be much more terrible by most people than the frog never becomin…

Well that sounds like a moral philosophy that is alien, unappealing, and downright evil in its consequences. I mean, by that exact logic—if you truly believe it—you should be out euthanizing homeless people as a net win. Every human life has value. There is no instance where I would value the life of a frog over the life of a human being. By logical consequence, I should always prefer one more human over one more fro…

We may be talking past each other and I don't follow the part about euthanasia you lay out at all.

My point is that it would be vastly more cruel to turn a frog into a human, let them live a little and then abandon them to fend for themselves after they've outlived their usefulness to me (which is how I understood your point above) than to leave the frog alone entirely. By turning them into a human you have acquired a degree of responsibility for their well being which I would argue you can't shirk under normal circumstances. (C.f. making babies.)

This logic hinges on the assumptions that 1) humans have a higher state of consciousness than animals (which might be debatable in certain cases, ok) and 2) that a frog is indifferent towards its current state of existence because it doesn't know any better.

Lastly, you write "every human life has value" but in that thought experiment in the OP, they are not humans so far so that logic doesn't hold. Just because you have the ability to elevate/create life of a higher consciousness, absolutely does not mean that you have to do so IMO and that it can be downright inhumane to do so. (Again, babies, contraception, abortions etc.)

Re: Make up a guy

#116

Post by gattr »

Here's another take on "creating a person solely to do some work": I believe it can be done in a humane way. Say, generate (or use a mind scan of) a programmer who loves their craft (as in, used to dream "if I only didn't have to go to work, I'd use all the time for my hobby projects").

Solution: put them in a simulated environment running at a higher than normal rate. Then, from their standpoint, it would be e.g. two 8-hour workdays per week, with the remaining 5 spent on (simulated) sailing/hiking/DIY/having fun with virtual concubines, you name it. These conditions could be legally mandated.

Re: Make up a guy

#117

Post by solstice »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #100
rom-antics wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a frog's life more bleak and meaningless than a human's life? We can't understand animals' thoughts, but that doesn't mean they don't have them. A frog spends its time chilling in a pond and swimming all day. People pay good money for vacations where they can do exactly that. Sounds like a good life to me. If I was a frog and you turned me into a homeless guy who has to go get a job at an Amazon warehouse to a…

Ridiculous. A homeless guy is going to have a way easier and more comfortable life than a frog He can just hang out in a makeshift shelter and eat whatever free food he finds. He'll be in way less danger at any given time than a frog would be, with a vastly longer and more fulfilling life ahead of him.

The issue is that he's not going to be comparing his current circumstances to a frog, but to other humans ofc, by which metric he's probably very badly off. I doubt our stereotypical homeless person is going to find their life very fulfilling even if it is longer than a frog's.

I mean, just think how you would react if you found yourself in dire straits and someone told you "hey don't worry, at least you are not at risk of being eaten by a bird" That would be a ridiculous argument no?

Re: Make up a guy

#118

Post by darepublic »

codeflo wrote: post #3

I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you…

This reminds me of black mirror. The cloned human consciousness trapped in simulations

Re: Make up a guy

#119

Post by pcthrowaway »

ianai wrote: post #42
codeflo wrote: post #3

I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you…

I read it. Unless I’m missing something, it amounts to making a slave race out of someone’s mind scan. So I’m someone who never eats animals nor animal products. This is in part from the sheer scale of that industry. But also from simply interacting with non-humans and knowing there’s enough intelligence there for me to honor and be horrified at the suffering or destruction of it. But I’m clearly in the minority here…

> But I’m clearly in the minority here

I've actually suspected for a while that it's not such a minority on HN, based on the discussions that happen every time clean meat tech posts get shared.

Unfortunately I've only worked with one other vegan "in the wild" so if this is true, I wonder if HN skews more "vegan" because people more likely to post on HN are overall more contemplative.

That, or we're just a very vocal minority (which I suppose is more likely than 30% of HN commenters being vegan or vegan-sympathetic).

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