I'm somewhat reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...
Make up a guy
61–70 of 176 posts
Re: Make up a guy
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
Depending on what you mean by "fully abandoning it" that doesn't seem to track with humans being loss-averse as has been shown in (I believe) many psychological studies. Meaning most people vastly prefer remaining at a low level than to even lose a tiny bit. The fate of a frog becoming human and then being discarded shortly afterwards would be judged to be much more terrible by most people than the frog never becomin…
Well that sounds like a moral philosophy that is alien, unappealing, and downright evil in its consequences. I mean, by that exact logic—if you truly believe it—you should be out euthanizing homeless people as a net win.
Every human life has value. There is no instance where I would value the life of a frog over the life of a human being. By logical consequence, I should always prefer one more human over one more frog. QED.
Re: Make up a guy
#63> Without having more information, I'm guessing, probably you would not do it. Wrong. Pretty much every time I'd do it. Just coz. ;) What do you mean I'm "Chaotic Neutral"? :p
Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
Why is a frog's life more bleak and meaningless than a human's life? We can't understand animals' thoughts, but that doesn't mean they don't have them.
A frog spends its time chilling in a pond and swimming all day. People pay good money for vacations where they can do exactly that. Sounds like a good life to me.
If I was a frog and you turned me into a homeless guy who has to go get a job at an Amazon warehouse to afford food, I'd use my newfound intellectual capacity to plot revenge on you and everyone you love.
Re: Make up a guy
#64I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you…
Anyone liking Lena might also like to read Vernor Vinge's 2003 novella The Cookie Monster, which at least ends on a bit more of a hopeful note.
Re: Make up a guy
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
Why is a frog's life more bleak and meaningless than a human's life? We can't understand animals' thoughts, but that doesn't mean they don't have them. A frog spends its time chilling in a pond and swimming all day. People pay good money for vacations where they can do exactly that. Sounds like a good life to me. If I was a frog and you turned me into a homeless guy who has to go get a job at an Amazon warehouse to a…
And getting eaten by birds. All life in nature (except of top predators like us) is harsh, brutal, and short.
Re: Make up a guy
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Depending on what you mean by "fully abandoning it" that doesn't seem to track with humans being loss-averse as has been shown in (I believe) many psychological studies. Meaning most people vastly prefer remaining at a low level than to even lose a tiny bit. The fate of a frog becoming human and then being discarded shortly afterwards would be judged to be much more terrible by most people than the frog never becomin…
Well that sounds like a moral philosophy that is alien, unappealing, and downright evil in its consequences. I mean, by that exact logic—if you truly believe it—you should be out euthanizing homeless people as a net win. Every human life has value. There is no instance where I would value the life of a frog over the life of a human being. By logical consequence, I should always prefer one more human over one more fro…
> Every human life has value.
You say that because you're a human. If you were a frog, I bet you'd value frogs' lives more than humans. Why do you think it's your place to change others' lives into whatever form you personally prefer?
Re: Make up a guy
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stross's "Missile Gap" is also deeply scary, and has an environment that might be entirely a highly advanced upload simulation. https://web.archive.org/web/20140224051031/https://subterran...
Edit: oof, wrong story. Sorry You mean the redoubt at the end? Didn't they go through a portal to get there? Didn't seem to be an uploading machine. Also, why would they need fighter jets then? But it's an interesting thought...
The referenced story is Stross's "A Colder War": http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm
It's not at all about uploading, but it is very much worth a read.
Re: Make up a guy
#68I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned. It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it. Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you…
I read it. Unless I’m missing something, it amounts to making a slave race out of someone’s mind scan. So I’m someone who never eats animals nor animal products. This is in part from the sheer scale of that industry. But also from simply interacting with non-humans and knowing there’s enough intelligence there for me to honor and be horrified at the suffering or destruction of it. But I’m clearly in the minority here…
Unless I’m missing something, it amounts to making a slave race out of someone’s mind scan. So I’m someone who never eats animals nor animal products.
I have always wondered why reincarnationists, when I talk to them, presume time is a directly mapped thing. I say to them, how do you not know, there is only one "soul", but you are just seeing it at different points in existence?
How do you not know that you are that grasshopper, and your parents, and your kid, and your grandmother, all at different points of linear experience, but at the same time, maybe you were your child, then the grasshopper, then "Grogg" 30k years ago, the grandma, then you? Because the order is random?
I tell them this, and some ponder.
Then I go have a steak.
Because it's good for me, and I don't want to disappoint myself, when I'm a cow.
Re: Make up a guy
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. Now suppose some advanced alien had the power to advance _you_ to his level of sentience , thus cutting you off from everything you have known and loved, including your family. Would you let the alien do that?
Maybe. With a human being there’s an issue of consent. I don’t believe frogs are intelligent enough to be able to give informed consent, but for people that would be an issue. But setting aside the issue of consent, then yes. (Caveat: I don’t believe this hypothetical is possible anyway. I am of the opinion that there is a dividing line in sentience beyond which improvements are possible but are more like upgrades th…
It's a bold move to decry one moral philosophy as evil in its consequences, and advance as preferable another that's evil in its precepts.
Re: Make up a guy
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes I mean I wish life wasnt made in this self eating way, and I dont think intelligence should be the only factor: all the mushrooms you gobble have an intrinsict beauty you're violating, tearing and repurposing like they're mere trash to recycle. But it is so for now and our chemistry is made to make more out of meat quicker, and to feel good eating it as result: we cant stop nor expect others to stop just yet. Don…
A mushroom is a weird example for empathy for a few reasons. First, the part you eat is really just the "fruit" or reproductive part of the mushroom that only lasts for a short time before withering away. Second, mushrooms very happily eat you after you die, hell, even before you die you're covered in all kinds of unicellular fungi which are actively trying to eat you. More to your philosophical point, the beauty of…
hell, even before you die you're covered in all kinds of unicellular fungi which are actively trying to eat you
They started it first, Your Honour!
not eliminating raising animals for meat entirely.
I wonder. If we genetically engineered, maybe via a bio attack, so all cows were effected at once, a deadly disease?
This disease would be a genetic illness, so that just a while after maturity, cows would become sick with crippling pain.
Thus, we would be helping them, to kill them before the pain and agony started, and therefore... none would question what we do with the meat.
...
Now replace the disease with "it all goes downhill after 30". Really, it's sorta the same thing.