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Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

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Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#141

Post by KptMarchewa »

gwd wrote: post #120
NikolaNovak wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't this used to be solved by the simple and incredibly efficient method of having a bathroom heater? One thing I don't understand about Nest et al is - virtually no houses have actual zone cooling or heating. So when we say "make bathroom 21c at 8pm" we are actually saying "heat up entire house until bathroom is 21c at 8pm". Turning on electric heater in bathroom for 30seconds seems incredibly more convenient and…

> Didn't this used to be solved by the simple and incredibly efficient method of having a bathroom heater? Bathroom heaters don't heat instantaneously; so you either have to remember to turn it on manually (introducing your own fudge factor, as described above), or start your bathing process with a colder-than-you-want room. > One thing I don't understand about Nest et al is - virtually no houses have actual zone coo…

Is 17C considered reasonable temperature in home in UK?

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#142

Post by KptMarchewa »

shapefrog wrote: post #109
automatic6131 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a highly consumer tech literate person with a near unlimited budget (either from freebies or business expenses or just because he's a multi millionaire) struggles with this stuff, you can be sure it's not ready for even enthusiast adoption.

> highly consumer tech literate person Watching his videos on this subject I do not get the impression that he falls into this category.

If he's not then pretty no one is; and the solutions are overcomplicated.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#143

Post by andrewaylett »

tarotuser wrote: post #99
andrewaylett wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two elements of "smart" are often combined, but there's no need to have both. There's remote control, which is one thing. My Honeywell system can do that, but even if I don't connect it to the WiFi (and earlier versions required extra hardware) it'll still do smart local control. I lose weather compensation in that case, though, as it uses a remote forecast to predict future demand and not bother turning the heat…

> Beyond that, though, the controller will modulate the boiler to maintain the set point -- heating systems term this "TPI", I assume it's not a PID controller because it lacks the derivative component. The term for this control theory operation is called "Bang bang". The basic logic is "Turn on if under set point, and turn off if at or above set point". Ovens and cheaper HVAC heating controllers use this extensively…

That's the non-smart behaviour -- TPI stands for "Temperature Proportional and Integral" and is the basic behaviour to try to automatically modulate the heating output to maintain the set point without overshooting. While PID is "Proportional Integral Derivative" which is a step smarter again.

The Honeywell system I have seems to have gained extra derivative-based functionality recently too, which is nice :).

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#144

Post by RichardCA »

derenge wrote: post #119
cameronh90 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every light in my house is Hue, and all rooms have those Hue dimmer switches mounted over the normal light switch. I absolutely love it. It's never been anything other than instantly responsive, works without the internet and I can turn all the house's lights off from my bed. Additionally, the utility rooms, hallways and bathroom lights are just fully automated so you never think about it. The regular switches are st…

Could you elaborate more on how the dimmer switch covers your normal light switch? From the product page it looks like the dimmer has a flat back. Did you remove the actual switch?

This: https://www.amazon.com/Lutron-Aurora-Dimmer-Philips-Z3-1BRL-...

You leave the toggle switch in the On position and mount this on top of it. Very clever.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#145

Post by yencabulator »

jchw wrote: post #58
samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

Smart equipment is fine as long as the "smart" part is just synchronization built on top. I have ZigBee and Zwave (yes both for now unfortunately) switches and dimmers, these work completely fine manually in absense of home assistant. I do also use some smart bulbs (also ZigBee/Zwave) and when paired with a smart switch, they can work in absense of the controller still, allowing you to still control the lights as lon…

> Smart equipment is fine as long as the "smart" part is just synchronization built on top.

... until you hit that bug that tells all the lights in the school to turn off about 100 times a second.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#146

Post by yencabulator »

Volundr wrote: post #127
arp242 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I bought my previous house I changed to door to my bedroom to swing open the other way, as the original direction awkwardly swung open "in to the room" rather than towards the wall. The downside was that the light switch was now behind the door, and because I didn't want to re-route the cables for for the light switch I used a wireless switch, which seemed like a good solution. It was, but I also had all of the…

> I apologize to whomever is living there now. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even realize it's wireless and were confused why it's such a shitty switch, and when the battery eventually ran out. It's odd to me that it's the norm for the seller/buyer of the house to never meet. I bought a 1970s house awhile ago, and have slowly learned it's eccentricities as well as adding some myself. I think it'd b…

It's a cover-your-ass move. The seller's agent explicitly tells the seller that they shouldn't answer any questions directly, because saying the wrong thing could create a liability. Admitting awareness of a problem can be used against you.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#147

Post by Tijdreiziger »

derenge wrote: post #119
cameronh90 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every light in my house is Hue, and all rooms have those Hue dimmer switches mounted over the normal light switch. I absolutely love it. It's never been anything other than instantly responsive, works without the internet and I can turn all the house's lights off from my bed. Additionally, the utility rooms, hallways and bathroom lights are just fully automated so you never think about it. The regular switches are st…

Could you elaborate more on how the dimmer switch covers your normal light switch? From the product page it looks like the dimmer has a flat back. Did you remove the actual switch?

The Hue Dimmer Switch V2 has standard mounting holes on the back plate. You’d need to remove the existing switch.

https://tweakers.net/productreview/292224/philips-hue-dimmer...

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#148

Post by Tijdreiziger »

Dalewyn wrote: post #81
stdbrouw wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a huge aversion to any kind of smart control, but the new generation of home automation (2010-now or whatever) is fundamentally different from the kind of 80's and 90's domotics that we all have vague memories of. Older systems (like the school system, probably) relied on an expensive central panel and wiring and accessories that were potentially tailored to that particular system, and if something wen…

>But now, all you need is mains power and a smartphone, And a server owned by Jesus McJesusFace in WhereTheHellistan propped up by shitnickles funds. Just no. A simple physical switch works every single damn time without external dependencies. Perfection is simplicity, not complexity.

Philips Hue works fully locally. You can optionally cloud-connect it for out-of-home control, but it’s not necessary.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#149

Post by yencabulator »

Symbiote wrote: post #75
GTP wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. Why would you need an extra employee just to turn on/off the lights? I think janitors or teachers always did that as part of the job before smart switches came around, no need to hire some "light manager".

Exactly: the person who checks the windows are shut, taps are closed, and locks the doors every evening can also switch the lights off.

BRB starting a smart cloud faucets for schools startup.

(Any teachers that want to use a toilet after 5pm will need a smartphone app installed.)

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#150

Post by yencabulator »

briandear wrote: post #122
hasbot wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly highly unlikely. If that were the case, the complaint would be the school is very dirty. I was a janitor for three years in a middle school. There were five people that came in every day after school and cleaned the building. Bathrooms especially need cleaning every day. And, yes, turning off the lights were the responsibilities of every janitor. Each person had their own section and, after cleaning it, turned…

The kids should clean the damned school. https://www.good.is/amp/japan-children-clean-schools-2639606...

Kids aren't going to operate a commercial floor waxing machine. Kids shouldn't be responsible for hygiene of toilets or kitchens. Kids shouldn't have access to stronger cleaning products.

Kids doing light chores aren't going to remove the need for a cleaning crew.

And your article agrees:

> Japanese schools have non-teaching staff called yomushuji [...] their main job is cleaning and maintenance.

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