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Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#11

Post by jqpabc123 »

Udo wrote: post #5

I regularly get recommendations for extremist content on Youtube, even though it's not thematically related to anything I already watch. The most harmless ones are Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate videos, but not too far behind is conspiracy stuff, fundamentalist religious channels, "spiritual" videos about faith and ghosts and living the Matrix. Like you, I used to click on the options to little effect, so now I just…

It's the kind of content I'm supposed to like in my gender/age/status cohort.

Yes. This is exactly how personalized advertising works.

Advertisers pay to target specific groups/cohorts in a statistical manner. Sorry that you don't like your cohort but this is a well known and unavoidable byproduct of their statistical approach.

It's like when a friend has cancer. You search for it on Google and the next thing you know, you're bombarded with ads for quack remedys.

The only effective solution --- avoid those who play this game.

Advertising doesn't have to work this way. There are alternatives --- such as basing it strictly on expressed interest. If you search for cancer, you should expect some ads related to cancer. What you shouldn't expect is these ads tracking you all over the internet.

Advertising works but there is not much independent evidence to show that personalized advertising is really any more cost effective.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#12

Post by krapp »

Chances are someone you link to (either following their channel or through some other metric) has engaged with that content, and so Youtube believes that you're more likely to engage with it as well, if you have overlapping interests. It may be a relationship several orders removed from you - but Youtube still counts it.

> If anything, because I was so puzzled by what was happening that I looked at who this Leather fellow was, Youtube’s trillion dollar “AI” tech stack will probably serve more and more of this stuff.

So... it worked. You seem to be confused about the goals of Youtube's algorithm - it isn't to show you the content you're most interested in, per se, it's to show you the content you're more likely to add value to by engagement. That can and often does correlate to your interests, but controversy works just as well, which is why these platforms often incentivize controversy over quality. Sometimes they'll throw random stuff into your feed just so see if you'll bite.

Consider deleting your view history if you haven't already. Go through your subscriptions and see who they're following. Absolutely do not click on more than one of someone's video if you don't want to get flooded with their content.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#13

Post by ladyattis »

It's kind of funny that this is a thing too. Sometimes, I'll get the pop culture outrage grifters recommended to me since I like to dip into the current events regarding comic books. Otherwise, I get just random junk. Recommendations to view uploaded movie clips or whatever but nothing close to what I regularly watch. I always feel like the Youtube recommendation system is flakey. It doesn't even pick up the fact that I'm subscribed to a ton of small channels for cooking and rarely puts their content on the feed. It's wild I swear.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#14

Post by jasfi »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #10

I think Youtube has ran its course. Google knows Youtube is no longer the money maker it once was, and is knowingly (either literally so, or by using algorithms they can blame and plead ignorance) pushing spicy content to get you to interact. This isn't a zero sum game: every time you tell it "don't recommend" and "not interested", that is an interaction, too. You are on Youtube instead of some other website or servi…

Working as designed? That explains everything!

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#15

Post by neonnoodle »

The YouTube recommendation system is optimized to direct all users toward pools of content that have the highest amount of watch time. The AI has learned about various paths that get users to watch for longer amounts of time. One of those paths is right-wing polemics. Another path is, say, makeup tutorials. It's not inherently political.

Purely by its own machine learning, the YouTube algorithm becomes sophisticated at inching people toward the high-watchtime material. There is no mal intent. There's no intent at all except for revenue. The AI doesn't "know" what the content of the reactionary videos even is. All it "knows" is that people who get there watch longer, and that people get there by way of other interests, such as martial arts, history, or guns. It also "knows" that this transition has to happen gradually to succeed. The recommendation progression is subtle:

Martial arts -> combat -> guns/militaria -> liberals are coming to seize your guns

Martial arts -> combat -> guns/militaria -> look at this neat Nazi gun -> were the Nazis so wrong???

Martial arts -> MMA -> Joe Rogan -> Jordan Peterson -> feminism is destroying Western civilization

Martial arts -> MMA -> Joe Rogan -> (((George Soros))) is a space reptile

Your line of questioning assumes that this process is malfunctioning, when in fact it is working as intended. You're correct that it's ethically grotesque, but since when have companies ever taken responsibility for externalities without being compelled to via regulation? YouTube has the legal right to host and broadcast whatever (non-obscene, non-copyrighted) content makes it the most money. The only free-market answer would be advertisers pulling money, which they occasionally do as a disciplinary mechanism. But if the advertisers don't really care, well...

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#16

Post by 082349872349872 »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #11
Udo wrote: post #5

I regularly get recommendations for extremist content on Youtube, even though it's not thematically related to anything I already watch. The most harmless ones are Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate videos, but not too far behind is conspiracy stuff, fundamentalist religious channels, "spiritual" videos about faith and ghosts and living the Matrix. Like you, I used to click on the options to little effect, so now I just…

It's the kind of content I'm supposed to like in my gender/age/status cohort. Yes. This is exactly how personalized advertising works. Advertisers pay to target specific groups/cohorts in a statistical manner. Sorry that you don't like your cohort but this is a well known and unavoidable byproduct of their statistical approach. It's like when a friend has cancer. You search for it on Google and the next thing you kno…

More to the point, personalised advertising doesn't mean you are supposed to like it; it means they like reaching you.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#17

Post by alexb_ »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #10

I think Youtube has ran its course. Google knows Youtube is no longer the money maker it once was, and is knowingly (either literally so, or by using algorithms they can blame and plead ignorance) pushing spicy content to get you to interact. This isn't a zero sum game: every time you tell it "don't recommend" and "not interested", that is an interaction, too. You are on Youtube instead of some other website or servi…

>Google knows Youtube is no longer the money maker it once was

Implying YouTube literally ever made money lmfao

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#18

Post by jshaqaw »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #10

I think Youtube has ran its course. Google knows Youtube is no longer the money maker it once was, and is knowingly (either literally so, or by using algorithms they can blame and plead ignorance) pushing spicy content to get you to interact. This isn't a zero sum game: every time you tell it "don't recommend" and "not interested", that is an interaction, too. You are on Youtube instead of some other website or servi…

Truly sad to throw out the baby with the bathwater though.

On Youtube I can watch IAS lectures on cutting edge topics on quiet evenings. I can find incredible creators explaining mathematical and physics concepts - often with innovative and useful graphical presentation. I can watch Kendo matches from Japan and more BJJ instructional videos from true masters than I'd have time to watch in 10 lifetimes. For someone who spends all day reading/writing text for work and then still reads a lot on free time - well sometimes you just want to watch/listen vs. more text input!

But yes I will move on if anything like this happens again. Nothing is irreplaceable.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#19

Post by jshaqaw »

neonnoodle wrote: post #15

The YouTube recommendation system is optimized to direct all users toward pools of content that have the highest amount of watch time. The AI has learned about various paths that get users to watch for longer amounts of time. One of those paths is right-wing polemics. Another path is, say, makeup tutorials. It's not inherently political. Purely by its own machine learning, the YouTube algorithm becomes sophisticated…

I absolutely get the recommendsation progression. I'm a pragmatist and a capitalist. I'm not demanding a ban on anything.

But when a user explicitly says "NO NO STOP YOU HAVE IT WRONG" and it has no impact then it is not optimal design, it is bad design, and not possibly revenue maximizing. Fixing it would also be a great way for these companies to stop stepping in public relations unforced errors.

Re: Dear YouTube AI, I Am Not a Nazi

#20

Post by jshaqaw »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #10

I think Youtube has ran its course. Google knows Youtube is no longer the money maker it once was, and is knowingly (either literally so, or by using algorithms they can blame and plead ignorance) pushing spicy content to get you to interact. This isn't a zero sum game: every time you tell it "don't recommend" and "not interested", that is an interaction, too. You are on Youtube instead of some other website or servi…

Also, remember I actually pay hard cash for Youtube (which embarrasses me every time I type it!) so the idea that they can't distinguish engagement highly likely to keep me forking over subscription moolah versus engagement highly likely to send me running for the hills when I actively use their provided tools to tell them "I HATE THIS STOP SHOWING IT TO ME" is a pure business failure. The concept that all engagement is good engagement may work on a platform like Twitter where the point is to rile everyone up into opposing war camps but is that really why people come to Youtube? Some people just like physics videos, or cooking videos, or video game reviews, or whatever...
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