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Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

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Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#91

Post by derbOac »

braingenious wrote: post #38
autora wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering parent, myself and most people I talk to consider the point of Nest being the ability to control their thermostat when they are out of the house, I don't understand how any system in the 70s or 80s could even work at all like a Nest, let alone better. No mobile phones, no widespread use of the internet and a hobbyist can make a thermostat you can control when out of the house? Would love to know how?

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

I'm not sure I want to control my thermostat remotely, but I can think of lots of reasons I'd want to read it remotely.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#92

Post by iLoveOncall »

sandos wrote: post #89
iLoveOncall wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just looking at the absolute nightmare that Linus from Linus Tech Tips (a popular YouTube tech channel) is going through with his smart house is enough to make it obvious that those solutions just suck.

Just looking quickly at one video where he had trouble with heating, they seem to use, lets say, not exactly finished products. Instead controlling things via Home Assistant. Which does not to me scream having lots of money, even is he has that. I believe there are much more expensive and more ready-made systems than what was used there.

I think you're talking about the latest one where he's mining bitcoin for heating. I haven't seen that video, but there is a playlist of 30 videos about his new house, and a lot talk about different smart-home aspects which are top of the line and yet just don't work.

I think the one that shows the most glaring issues is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkAiXzKOTNY about his smart lights.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#95

Post by Mvandenbergh »

samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

Earlier generations of Nest didn't have proportional control capability of any kind, no ability to apply Load or Temperature compensation either which are things that less polished looking heating and cooling control systems have been able to do for decades.

To be fair to Nest, newer versions are able to do this but many heating and cooling systems don't expose those functions on a standards compliant open way. As a result, a vast number of heating and cooling systems runs about 10% less efficiently than they should but there's really no way for end customers to know that since they don't have a reliable benchmark to compare against.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#97

Post by NikolaNovak »

gwd wrote: post #45
braingenious wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

> I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? I don't use a smart thermostat, but what's told to me is this. With a "timer" thermostat, you tell the system when to start heating ; but what you really want to tell the system is when you want it warm . For example, we regularly give my son a bath between 7 and 7:30, so I wan…

Didn't this used to be solved by the simple and incredibly efficient method of having a bathroom heater?

One thing I don't understand about Nest et al is - virtually no houses have actual zone cooling or heating. So when we say "make bathroom 21c at 8pm" we are actually saying "heat up entire house until bathroom is 21c at 8pm". Turning on electric heater in bathroom for 30seconds seems incredibly more convenient and efficient.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#98

Post by wikfwikf »

samwhiteUK wrote: post #57
wikfwikf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't flip a circuit breaker every night and every morning. Firstly the school's safety code would not allow it. Secondly they are not designed for that. Thirdly, there are probably lots of things in a high school which need to be kept on overnight: computers, fridges, lab equipment.

The lighting and sockets should be on separate circuits.

Yes, but now you're redesigning a normal electricity setup for a large building like a school. This is the system that was, presumably, replaced by the broken IoT system, plus the absolute minimum of traditional kit outside of that.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#99

Post by tarotuser »

andrewaylett wrote: post #67
gwd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? I don't use a smart thermostat, but what's told to me is this. With a "timer" thermostat, you tell the system when to start heating ; but what you really want to tell the system is when you want it warm . For example, we regularly give my son a bath between 7 and 7:30, so I wan…

The two elements of "smart" are often combined, but there's no need to have both. There's remote control, which is one thing. My Honeywell system can do that, but even if I don't connect it to the WiFi (and earlier versions required extra hardware) it'll still do smart local control. I lose weather compensation in that case, though, as it uses a remote forecast to predict future demand and not bother turning the heat…

> Beyond that, though, the controller will modulate the boiler to maintain the set point -- heating systems term this "TPI", I assume it's not a PID controller because it lacks the derivative component.

The term for this control theory operation is called "Bang bang". The basic logic is "Turn on if under set point, and turn off if at or above set point". Ovens and cheaper HVAC heating controllers use this extensively.

You do see a bit of hysteresis, since it's goal is not to be under the point, but overshoots are definitely a thing. And since it's a simple instantaneous decision (unlike PID), it's also pretty simple to make very cheaply.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang%E2%80%93bang_control

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#100

Post by mcv »

Symbiote wrote: post #73
woile wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of my sister installing an Alexa controlled light in the living room with no switch. My dad, who doesn't speak english, couldn't turn them on when he stayed there. I keep thinking turning on lights with a switch takes even less time than interacting with Alexa.

I have wireless light switches in my rented apartment, and I don't like them. 1. I can't see from the position of the switch the state of the light, so I still after 5 years press the wrong switch sometimes. 2. Sometimes, maybe 5% of the time, the light doesn't change instantly, but up to 2 seconds after I pressed the button. 3. About 5% of the time, the light doesn't change at all. Then I either think I've pressed t…

I also have a few wireless switches, and in some cases, the light doesn't immediately respond to a press requiring a few tries, and sometimes it doesn't respond at all. Could be distance, could be the battery is running out, but either way it's a problem I'd never had with regular light switches. At our last remodeling, I had some of them removed and replaced by regular wired switches wherever possible. Nothing beats the user experience of direct interaction with a system.
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