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Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

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Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#81

Post by Dalewyn »

stdbrouw wrote: post #74
samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

I used to have a huge aversion to any kind of smart control, but the new generation of home automation (2010-now or whatever) is fundamentally different from the kind of 80's and 90's domotics that we all have vague memories of. Older systems (like the school system, probably) relied on an expensive central panel and wiring and accessories that were potentially tailored to that particular system, and if something wen…

>But now, all you need is mains power and a smartphone,

And a server owned by Jesus McJesusFace in WhereTheHellistan propped up by shitnickles funds.

Just no. A simple physical switch works every single damn time without external dependencies. Perfection is simplicity, not complexity.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#82

Post by nottorp »

bbojan wrote: post #56
newaccount74 wrote: post #29

I've never seen a "smart" lighting system that was meaningfully better than a light switch. Every place I've been to that had fancy ways to control the lighting was just annoying. In school and uni teachers had issues dimming the lights, people who have smart lights at home can't figure out how to turn on/off some of the lights, you can't turn off flickering lights because they are motion activated... My favorite "sm…

I remember stopping at this gas station a few years ago and using the restroom. I walk an and it's completely dark. I start looking for the switch and the light turns on automatically after a few seconds. I guess it's motion based. I start to pee (this is a toilet, not a pissoir) and I guess I'm very still or what, the light turns off and it's of course pitch dark because I've closed and locked the door. So now I'm t…

You need to jiggle just your head :)

Had two places where i was regularly going out get stingy with the toilet light timer. One fixed it after I (and probably a lot of other people) complained. The other was still too short last time i've been there.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#83

Post by nanis »

xnorswap wrote: post #26

This is why it's so important to have public contracts drafted and reviewed by experts. The original contract should have provision in place that the system be maintained, that the school be notified in any change in parent company ownership, etc. It would then be much easier to compel the company to do the replacement and if necessary sue them to recover the $1.2m cost. The issue isn't just one of a technological so…

> Public bodies rushing to accept contracts thinking that suppliers have their best interests in mind is horribly naive.

"Public bodies" do not rush ... People who work there do. Those people really do not have that much of an incentive to be careful. They do not really bear the costs of their decision. They are also people, susceptible to having their decision influenced by whatever small or not so small immediate benefit they can derive regardless of the ultimate cost to the people who actually pay for the consequences of their decisions. And, this is before one brings in the possibility of corrupt collusion between the people who spend other people's money and people who receive it.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#84

Post by Semaphor »

Dalewyn wrote: post #81
stdbrouw wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a huge aversion to any kind of smart control, but the new generation of home automation (2010-now or whatever) is fundamentally different from the kind of 80's and 90's domotics that we all have vague memories of. Older systems (like the school system, probably) relied on an expensive central panel and wiring and accessories that were potentially tailored to that particular system, and if something wen…

>But now, all you need is mains power and a smartphone, And a server owned by Jesus McJesusFace in WhereTheHellistan propped up by shitnickles funds. Just no. A simple physical switch works every single damn time without external dependencies. Perfection is simplicity, not complexity.

I mean, if that’s what you want, sure. Or, as parent said, you could go with local control. The choice is there, if you really think McJesusFace’s server is great, go for it. Personally, I prefer not relying on any outside server and having everything locally and still get all those smart features.

Oh, and as an extra: That simple switch still works.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#85

Post by sidpatil »

Dalewyn wrote: post #81
stdbrouw wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have a huge aversion to any kind of smart control, but the new generation of home automation (2010-now or whatever) is fundamentally different from the kind of 80's and 90's domotics that we all have vague memories of. Older systems (like the school system, probably) relied on an expensive central panel and wiring and accessories that were potentially tailored to that particular system, and if something wen…

>But now, all you need is mains power and a smartphone, And a server owned by Jesus McJesusFace in WhereTheHellistan propped up by shitnickles funds. Just no. A simple physical switch works every single damn time without external dependencies. Perfection is simplicity, not complexity.

> And a server owned by Jesus McJesusFace in WhereTheHellistan propped up by shitnickles funds.

No you don't. Just use Home Assistant or openHAB — fully local control by default. I've been using the former for a while now, and it's been working great.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#86

Post by mmsimanga »

GTP wrote: post #60
ew6082 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was obviously not a good system design, but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. They really should also be able to turn off the lights at the breakers unless they did something exceptionally stupid like put the fire control panels on the lighting breakers.

> but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. Why would you need an extra employee just to turn on/off the lights? I think janitors or teachers always did that as part of the job before smart switches came around, no need to hire some "light manager".

Having read most of the comments debating the pros and cons of the system this is an astonishingly simple solution! Sometimes I think those of us in technology look for problems to solve.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#87

Post by yardie »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #52
bushbaba wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like how google is inserting chromebooks into education for a loss, to one day raise prices at the detriment of education facilities who bought into the google classroom offering. Color me surprised /s

In the 2000s, my sister had to buy an apple computer or laptop because the college required it for education students. This is a result of apple donating computers to school in the 80's. Google, really, is just following other people's example.

Apple never donated computers to schools. There are thousands of them. The company would go bankrupt in no time. What they did have is a company like MECC who wrote a lot of great Edtech software for Apple and Mac computers.

That relationship with education and creators helped carry them out of the pre-bankruptcy days.

School districts always had a budget in mind and traditional Apple would try and meet it. Now, they don’t even try. Just knock $100 off and call it the education edition is about as far as they are willing to extend.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#88

Post by dsfyu404ed »

xnorswap wrote: post #26

This is why it's so important to have public contracts drafted and reviewed by experts. The original contract should have provision in place that the system be maintained, that the school be notified in any change in parent company ownership, etc. It would then be much easier to compel the company to do the replacement and if necessary sue them to recover the $1.2m cost. The issue isn't just one of a technological so…

> This is why it's so important to have public contracts drafted and reviewed by experts.

You mean like how even the most minor stuff winds up getting reviewed by a PE firm to much expense?

>The issue isn't just one of a technological solution inferior to old fashioned manual lights, it's that public bodies get hoodwinked into contracts that are unfavourable.

They aren't stupid. Don't give them that easy out. They know the contracts are BS. They don't care because a) they can afford it b) every other municipality is signing similar ones so it's "industry standard"

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#89

Post by sandos »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #15
samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

Just looking at the absolute nightmare that Linus from Linus Tech Tips (a popular YouTube tech channel) is going through with his smart house is enough to make it obvious that those solutions just suck.

Just looking quickly at one video where he had trouble with heating, they seem to use, lets say, not exactly finished products. Instead controlling things via Home Assistant. Which does not to me scream having lots of money, even is he has that. I believe there are much more expensive and more ready-made systems than what was used there.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#90

Post by somethingwitty1 »

yardie wrote: post #87
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2000s, my sister had to buy an apple computer or laptop because the college required it for education students. This is a result of apple donating computers to school in the 80's. Google, really, is just following other people's example.

Apple never donated computers to schools. There are thousands of them. The company would go bankrupt in no time. What they did have is a company like MECC who wrote a lot of great Edtech software for Apple and Mac computers. That relationship with education and creators helped carry them out of the pre-bankruptcy days. School districts always had a budget in mind and traditional Apple would try and meet it. Now, they…

My school had donated Apple computers.

Edit: And they apparently are even today: https://www.apple.com/connectED/index.html "We’ve donated an iPad to every student, a Mac and iPad to every teacher, and an Apple TV to every classroom."

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