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Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

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Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#71

Post by gus_massa »

> “I would say the net impact is in the thousands of dollars per month on average, but not in the tens of thousands,” Osborne said.

> “After many weeks of effort, we were provided a rough estimate in excess of $1.2 Million to comparably replace the entire system,” Osborne and Provost wrote in an Aug. 26, 2022, response.

Let's say $3,000 per month, so 1,200,000/3,000 = 400 months = 33 years

> The original high school building, which dates back to 1959, was replaced with the current 248,000-square foot structure in 2012.

So the current system has only 10 years.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#72

Post by braingenious »

bearmode wrote: post #53
braingenious wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

If you get stuck in traffic on the way home from work, you might have your heating on for an extra 30+ minutes unnecessarily. If you decide to have a lazy day and sleep in, you can turn it on when you wake up instead of potentially 2+ hours early. If you have an unexpected overnight stop over somewhere (e.g. after a night out drinking), you can turn it off until when you're home again. Also works if you're taken to h…

The second bullet point under the title of this article is

“Customers said they had unknowingly agreed to let companies raise the temperature to save energy.”

If your position is that you could never mistakenly click the wrong button or check the wrong box, how is it possible that you could ever be so careless as to not accurately predict your temperature needs?

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#73

Post by Symbiote »

woile wrote: post #14
samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

It reminds me of my sister installing an Alexa controlled light in the living room with no switch. My dad, who doesn't speak english, couldn't turn them on when he stayed there. I keep thinking turning on lights with a switch takes even less time than interacting with Alexa.

I have wireless light switches in my rented apartment, and I don't like them.

1. I can't see from the position of the switch the state of the light, so I still after 5 years press the wrong switch sometimes.

2. Sometimes, maybe 5% of the time, the light doesn't change instantly, but up to 2 seconds after I pressed the button.

3. About 5% of the time, the light doesn't change at all. Then I either think I've pressed the wrong switch (see 1), or I have to turn around, walk back and try again.

I think the benefit is for the company who built the apartment, since they saved a few crowns not needing to run wires near the doorways. There is no benefit to the occupant, only problems.

At least the batteries in the switches are still fine.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#74

Post by stdbrouw »

samwillis wrote: post #5

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

I used to have a huge aversion to any kind of smart control, but the new generation of home automation (2010-now or whatever) is fundamentally different from the kind of 80's and 90's domotics that we all have vague memories of. Older systems (like the school system, probably) relied on an expensive central panel and wiring and accessories that were potentially tailored to that particular system, and if something went wrong you were totally out of luck, and only the installer could make changes or apply fixes. But now, all you need is mains power and a smartphone, Hue lights default to working like a regular light if something goes wrong with the Zigbee bridge, Shelly switches can be added onto regular switches so that it's just something on top of exactly the same tactile interface you already had, and so on and so on. And if all of it does mysteriously fail and you need to replace it, a new set of 10-20 light bulbs and some smart relays would set you back no more than a couple hundred dollars / euros.

Almost makes you wonder whether the school would be better off with a consumer grade system.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#75

Post by Symbiote »

GTP wrote: post #60
ew6082 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was obviously not a good system design, but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. They really should also be able to turn off the lights at the breakers unless they did something exceptionally stupid like put the fire control panels on the lighting breakers.

> but a box full of relays and PLC controller cost a whole lot less than the all-in employer cost of an extra employee. Why would you need an extra employee just to turn on/off the lights? I think janitors or teachers always did that as part of the job before smart switches came around, no need to hire some "light manager".

Exactly: the person who checks the windows are shut, taps are closed, and locks the doors every evening can also switch the lights off.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#76

Post by astrange »

braingenious wrote: post #38
autora wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering parent, myself and most people I talk to consider the point of Nest being the ability to control their thermostat when they are out of the house, I don't understand how any system in the 70s or 80s could even work at all like a Nest, let alone better. No mobile phones, no widespread use of the internet and a hobbyist can make a thermostat you can control when out of the house? Would love to know how?

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

California companies will remotely raise your thermostat too (actually turn it off), but you sign up for it first, and they pay you to do it.

That, and it sensing if you're home or not, are what makes it useful.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#77

Post by Symbiote »

newaccount74 wrote: post #29

I've never seen a "smart" lighting system that was meaningfully better than a light switch. Every place I've been to that had fancy ways to control the lighting was just annoying. In school and uni teachers had issues dimming the lights, people who have smart lights at home can't figure out how to turn on/off some of the lights, you can't turn off flickering lights because they are motion activated... My favorite "sm…

Motion-activated lights in corridors, hallways and stairwells seem fine.

My apartment building has this, and it's better than needing to press a button while carrying shopping bags etc. Visitors also don't need to work out which button to press -- I once rang someone's doorbell, thinking the switch would turn on hallway lights.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#78

Post by [deleted] »

Symbiote wrote: post #73
woile wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of my sister installing an Alexa controlled light in the living room with no switch. My dad, who doesn't speak english, couldn't turn them on when he stayed there. I keep thinking turning on lights with a switch takes even less time than interacting with Alexa.

I have wireless light switches in my rented apartment, and I don't like them. 1. I can't see from the position of the switch the state of the light, so I still after 5 years press the wrong switch sometimes. 2. Sometimes, maybe 5% of the time, the light doesn't change instantly, but up to 2 seconds after I pressed the button. 3. About 5% of the time, the light doesn't change at all. Then I either think I've pressed t…

[deleted]

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#79

Post by MarkusWandel »

gwd wrote: post #45
braingenious wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

> I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? I don't use a smart thermostat, but what's told to me is this. With a "timer" thermostat, you tell the system when to start heating ; but what you really want to tell the system is when you want it warm . For example, we regularly give my son a bath between 7 and 7:30, so I wan…

I rigged up a homemade remote controllable thermostat thing years ago, with the single killer app: I don't know exactly when I'm coming back after 1-2 weeks at the parent's, and I'd like to turn on the air conditioning or turn up the heat, as applicable, before getting into the car to drive back.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#80

Post by nottorp »

omegabravo wrote: post #24
samwillis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could hire a janitor's assistant to keep an eye out that the lights are off in the evening and turned on in the morning This is ultimately the biggest failing, and what makes this so sad. For a fraction of the cost of this system you could employee someone and have this as part of their responsibility. For automation to make sense, it can't just replace at the same cost (and certainly not cost more), it needs t…

Control systems often last decades, longer than most employees. I've recently worked on a control system that is at least 30 years old. While you can't get the exact part any more - you can still get compatible replacements that drop in. There are still staff that are competent working with the platform. They should be upgrading over the years, unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today.…

> unless you think working with a MS-DOS computer would be advisable today

MS-DOS doesn't even have a networking stack by default, so it's air gapped out of the box. That in case you're worried about security.

Other than that, if you can control some relays from an esp32 with 4k ram, why wouldn't you be able to do it from an 8088 box with 64?

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