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Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

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Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#61

This is fundamentally why I'm so sceptical of putting "smart" control equipment into my home. It's very expesive to fit in the first place, and then there is the incredibly high chance it will become redundant or unmaintainable in the next 5 to 10 years. You just won't see the payoff in that time. Much better to just turn the lights off when you leave a room, or turn the heating down and wear another layer. We have N…

Check this out: https://www.shelly.cloud/en-hu/products/product-overview/she...

It's inexpensive and easy to install. The most important feature is its REST API, so you can control it any way you like if you don't like the official app.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#62

I've never seen a "smart" lighting system that was meaningfully better than a light switch. Every place I've been to that had fancy ways to control the lighting was just annoying. In school and uni teachers had issues dimming the lights, people who have smart lights at home can't figure out how to turn on/off some of the lights, you can't turn off flickering lights because they are motion activated... My favorite "sm…

I see you too studied at the IT University in Copenhagen, Denmark ;-)

Happens also at Radboud University in Nijmegen, The Nederlands ;)

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went with standards based stuff, zigbee specifically. Matter/thread are the new standard that seems to stick. Basically, anything that doesn't require a specialized app to work, but rather a standardized protocol through a hub - and if the hub fails or sucks, you can replace it. Fortunately, it seems like the vendors are finally standardizing.

Standardising on Matter? What was wrong with Zigbee/Zwave? How long until another standard comes along :D

Matter is in many ways a meta-standard. The transport layer may well be remain as Zigbee or Zwave, but by having at least the controllers supporting Matter you get interoperability between different protocols, rather than having to go all in on a specific one.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#64

This is why it's so important to have public contracts drafted and reviewed by experts. The original contract should have provision in place that the system be maintained, that the school be notified in any change in parent company ownership, etc. It would then be much easier to compel the company to do the replacement and if necessary sue them to recover the $1.2m cost. The issue isn't just one of a technological so…

You mean like how google is inserting chromebooks into education for a loss, to one day raise prices at the detriment of education facilities who bought into the google classroom offering. Color me surprised /s

They don't even have to raise prices. Keeping a generation locked into Google products could turn them into the Microsoft of the next generation of office workers.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#65

Surely there is a circuit breaker somewhere.

You can't flip a circuit breaker every night and every morning. Firstly the school's safety code would not allow it. Secondly they are not designed for that. Thirdly, there are probably lots of things in a high school which need to be kept on overnight: computers, fridges, lab equipment.

They are designed for that https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/21685/does-turning-c...

But I agree some organizations will prohibit staff from touching the breakers.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

I'm not sure how intentionally[1] opting into an agreement to have your thermostat remotely controlled is an argument against having it connected to the internet. The best argument would be the hypothetical remote control by a bad actor without any consent. [1] what's curious about this particular story is how "intentional" this was; the report is vague and hints that some people were unaware exactly what they were o…

>I'm not sure how intentionally[1] opting into an agreement to have your thermostat remotely controlled is an argument against having it connected to the internet.

???

I think you immediately followed that up with more than one answer to that?

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#67
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? As an argument against connecting one’s thermostat to the internet, I’ll point to this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remot...

> I’m curious, what is the big draw of controlling your thermostat in real time that is significantly better than just (for example) a timer? I don't use a smart thermostat, but what's told to me is this. With a "timer" thermostat, you tell the system when to start heating ; but what you really want to tell the system is when you want it warm . For example, we regularly give my son a bath between 7 and 7:30, so I wan…

The two elements of "smart" are often combined, but there's no need to have both.

There's remote control, which is one thing. My Honeywell system can do that, but even if I don't connect it to the WiFi (and earlier versions required extra hardware) it'll still do smart local control. I lose weather compensation in that case, though, as it uses a remote forecast to predict future demand and not bother turning the heating on if it's not actually going to be needed.

The more important aspect of "smart" heating is proportional control and predictive heating. As you say, regular thermostats will turn the heating on when the temperature is below the set point, then off when it's above, with some hysteresis to avoid flapping. And one function of the smart system is to predict how early it needs to turn the heating on to get up to temperature in time. The Honeywell will also switch the heating off early if it's confident the temperature will drop by less than 0.5°C before the end of the set time.

Beyond that, though, the controller will modulate the boiler to maintain the set point -- heating systems term this "TPI", I assume it's not a PID controller because it lacks the derivative component. Time Proportional and Integral either (in my old house) controls the boiler modulation directly or (in my new house) turns it on for a few minutes in every time slice in an attempt to get the right amount of heat into the system to maintain the set point.

Where a system like the Honeywell really shines though is that I'm not turning the whole house on or off -- I've smart TRVs on each radiator, so I can have heat in my office during the day and in the lounge in the evening and not have to keep rooms warm when I'm not using them. Having recently moved house and consequently had a few weeks without the smart system I can attest that it really does make a big difference.

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#68

I've never seen a "smart" lighting system that was meaningfully better than a light switch. Every place I've been to that had fancy ways to control the lighting was just annoying. In school and uni teachers had issues dimming the lights, people who have smart lights at home can't figure out how to turn on/off some of the lights, you can't turn off flickering lights because they are motion activated... My favorite "sm…

There are loads of examples of smart lighting systems that are more efficient than a light switch. You didn't notice them, because the lighting was doing exactly what you expected it to. You only notice the instances where the system is badly calibrated or had a poor control system and it annoyed you.

For me that's basically the definition of good automation. If its really good you don't engage with it at all. The lights come on when people want lights, they turn off or dim when they want less light. The heating keeps things at a comfortable temperature. The unfortunate thing is that a bunch of vendors have come along and because its easier rebranded "automation" to mean "awkward light switch which requires having a conversation with a computer".

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#69

Is it truly not possible, despite the original owners changing hands, to locate the original source for the control system and modify it? Furthermore, they said that they attempted a patch. Would this be feasible in more adept hands, with someone experienced at reverse engineering?

The linked student article covers that.

Gaining access to the software that runs the lights is one of the main reasons why the lights can’t be adjusted correctly. “[5th Light] no longer has any of that information. They don’t have the software,” Cenedella said.

“The old information is proprietary, so they wouldn’t originally give it to us. Now, they say that they don’t have it and that it’s unavailable."

https://minnechaugsmokesignal.com/1894/news/whats-wrong-with...

Re: Lights have been on at this school for a year because no one can turn them off

#70
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't flip a circuit breaker every night and every morning. Firstly the school's safety code would not allow it. Secondly they are not designed for that. Thirdly, there are probably lots of things in a high school which need to be kept on overnight: computers, fridges, lab equipment.

Since you can turn off the lights with a normal switch every night and morning, I’m inclined to say you can do the same with an entire circuit.

Circuit breakers are not designed for many cycles.
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