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What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

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Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#231

Post by FireBeyond »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

I had to write a letter in support of my immigration application, explaining my situation and circumstances.

I gave it to my attorney and she read over it and handed it back to me. "You already have an attorney. My letter will read like an attorney wrote it. Yours should instead look like a human wrote it."

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#232

Post by PuppyTailWags »

foobarbecue wrote: post #168
NikolaNovak wrote: post #149

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no f…

I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?

I think it is possible and I think it helps to explore what you don't think about. Everyone has things that never/rarely occur to them to consider performing as an action, even people with significantly broader consideration-spheres than others. For example, I've considered suicide but never going pro in ballet. I've considered stealing from my employer but never becoming an opera influencer. I'm less athletic than a sibling of mine, so things like vaulting over fences/climbing trees aren't things I that would even occur to me to perform but my sibling is always thinking of ways they can get over and around physical obstacles with their body.

I don't think that it's some people follow prescribed paths. I think everyone has familiar and less-familiar paths, and some paths are totally out of the way. And I think the overlap of what's considered familiar and what's considered out of the way have much less overlap than is commonly understood.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#233

Post by Delphiza »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #109
deutschepost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a pretty good interpretation of why these questions exist. If you say that you don't plan to commit crimes and then commit one, you have essentially lied on the form. In some cases at least it is way easier for the state to deport someone if they lie on their immigration form. But if the question wasn't there you would have to go through the whole legal process. On the other hand, if you answer yes to this qu…

Why would it be easier to deport someone for lying on a form rather than for being a terrorist?

The Oz government used some similar loophole (or threatened to use it) with the Djokovic covid saga at the Australian open. As I recall, a judge said that he could get a visa for whatever covid medical exemption reasons, but on his immigration form he said that he hadn't been travelling elsewhere. Social media proved otherwise, so he was caught in an easily provable lie on an immigration form. He was then able to be refused entry for reasons unreleated to the covid rules. In the end, they didn't have to rule on whether or not the Oz tennis association could issue a medical exemption for covid - they could kick him out on a much clearer legal basis. I don't recall the exact details, but that is the gist of some of the legal drama.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#234

Post by nottorp »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #7
Reubend wrote: post #4

> I learned by chance that putting certain provocative information on a security clearance form can greatly speed up the clearance process. But that is another story. Did he ever write about what that trick is?

https://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html Other poster posted the same link but is getting downvoted so might get overlooked.

> The security people apparently found it impractical to obtain the hour or two of a programmer's time that would have been needed to fix the code

I laughed so hard.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#235

Post by toss1 »

mason55 wrote: post #214
toss1 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. "Considered" is certainly ambiguous enough to be a failure in the context of a job application. When I was working at IBM, a my manager introduced me in passing to one of his peers who was getting a huge promotion, about three levels up. Why such an unusual promotion? He'd noticed a way that 4 people could conspire to exfiltrate $25 million on a Friday and be in some non-extradition country before it was noticed…

> but this is an absolute fail on the job application, unless the goal is to filter out intelligent people who have naturally curious minds. Not sure why you think this is a crazy goal for a retail job. If you can't figure out that you should say "no" to the stealing question, no matter what the truth is, then you're probably not a good fit to work retail. In fact, I'd bet that most of the "yes" answers to this quest…

>>I imagine that someone who really would steal is also dishonest enough to lie on the question.

Bingo!

I do expect that there are attempts to filter out overly intelligent people for some jobs. There was a lawsuit in Connecticut by an applicant who scored too high on the police exam and was denied a job. He lost the case, and established the right for police to reject people for being too smart as they might get bored or something (sorry, I don't have a link on hand).

But, as you point out, this question filters out only the honest and intelligent people.

It leaves you with the pool of people who are either dull or dishonest. Classic HR fail.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#236

Post by ufmace »

hackingthelema wrote: post #171
NikolaNovak wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I've heard that over time; I've tried a bit of mindfulness over the years and I see the value in it, I just haven't been able to harness it yet. I've tried some guided audio body focus mindfulness/meditation and 1. Most of it tries too hard and loses me with "Third Eye" and "Spirit world" "and chakra energy frequency balance" 2. Most of it starts from toes and turns out I need to start from center (ridiculous…

Abandon guided meditations and audio-based meditations, and focus to a simple programme of breath-focus. You just: 1. sit quietly and comfortably 2. breathe through your nose 3. find the feeling of air moving in and out of your nose 4. observe that feeling of air 5. if your mind starts observing other thoughts instead of the breath feeling -- 'I have an itch', 'this sitting position is uncomfortable', 'what about my…

This is basically the idea. Exact techniques vary, but the point is to keep gently re-focusing on something minor and physical. It doesn't really matter what it is, scan direction vs breath flow vs something else, none of it matters, just pick one and work on focusing.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#237

Post by archon1410 »

dbspin wrote: post #205
grishka wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only experience with serious US government forms was applying for a tourist visa. This form also has some bonkers checkboxes like "do you plan to commit any crimes in the US". Also the entry form they give you on your flight deserves a mention. This one has "did you handle livestock in the last X months" repeated like 3 times in different phrasing. Not as stupid as the first one, but... why? Why is that question t…

The livestock question might have been added during the Foot and Mouth epidemic, which could be spread on footwear and necessitated the destruction of livestock in the millions in Ireland and the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_United_Kingdom_foot-and-m...

> destruction of livestock

Such a tragic, disgusting euphemism for the murder of millions, without them getting to devour their corpses.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#238

Post by owlbite »

ArnoVW wrote: post #101
pedrovhb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the "are you a terrorist" section of the U.S. visa application is hilarious. I was honestly laughing out loud at some of the questions, imagining a sincere terrorist having their plan foiled by their strict moral code which requires them to lay out in detail their plan to topple the government :)

I've always understood that those questions are just a legal construct to be able to get you out of the country in case of issues. No need to prosecute for expulsion if there were lies on the immigration form; it becomes just an administrative matter.

My understanding was it also helped firmly establish federal wrongdoing rather than merely state.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#239

Post by foobarbecue »

derbOac wrote: post #221
foobarbecue wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?

FWIW, this sort of issue is a serious problem for many people with severe OCD. Basically a thought comes into their minds, about something disturbing or taboo, and they start obsessing over the fact they had the thought, because they're so distraught about the idea it would even come into their mind. In most cases, they are so far from actually doing anything related to the thought, and that's why they are so distrau…

Interesting; that makes a lot of sense. This insight makes me think there's a continuum between brains set to "control all thoughts" and brains set to "autmatically explore all possibilities."

I think I'm pretty neurotypical and fall somewhere in the middle, but I can see how a minor change in that "setting" would have a big impact on my behavior.

Re: What not to write on your security clearance form (1988)

#240

Post by dwater »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #189
the_af wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" One piece of advice my mom gave me which I always follow is: don't tell them (a company/job/boss) anything that could be used against you. There's no need to be truthful here, this isn't a consultation with your doctor. So lie, tell them you're healthy, you never had any problems with anyone ever, never admit to anything. Truth i…

I've watched that video several times; as somebody "largely" honest, I need it to pragmatically re-adjust my perspective every few years - because I TOTALLY am the person who would inherently monologue for 3 hours when asked a simple question by a cop :) The other piece of advice is trickier, and I personally do not follow it too closely (everything in life is circumstantial:). Two aspects to mention: 1. Often, a lie…

I believe you should have the same attitude when giving an interview e.g. to a member of the media. They will make it feel like a personal conversation which is intended to get you to share your story and views, but in the end they are really telling their story and their views, and will use what you say to support that whether you agree with what they are saying or not.
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