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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#151
Layoffs are happening, but, at the same time, the world is realizinng the impact of AI. With a PhD in a related field I think you can be employable for the foreseeable future. It's a challenging time to get hired, so you will need to bring your A game. I'd advise two things:

1. Build a portfolio of projects. Companies like to see that you're hands-on and problem-solving oriented. 2. Invest on your personal brand (via a website, LinkedIn or other social media). This helps put your name and what you do out there, so hiring managers can find you.

With those things at hand, you can make compelling applications and get noticed. I don't see a problem with reaching to managers directly, especially if you make clear how you can provide value.

About getting any job, it depends how much different it is from where you want to be in 5 or 10 years and what your immediate needs are. If you need the money, then you can go for it - any job will provide you learnings. But don't deviate too much from the future you want.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a junior without prior experience at a shitty company is a enormous risk. Being a senior means you can judge the shittyness, as junior this first experience will influence you for a good part of your future career, be it for the better or worse. My advice, look for some decent, experienced people in any job you have, but even more so in your first. Build a trustfull relationship with at least one of those folks…

Yes, absolutely agree - I was considering updating with something similar. Finding a mentor, either within or outside the company, who’s opinions you trust and who can say “no, you’re not reading that situation wrong, Jim’s behaving badly” or “yes, your instincts are correct, this is the right way to do this,” or even “yes, Bob’s incompetent, but in this case, he’s right, because of this” is absolutely invaluable. It…

Agree. I would add that someone like this is important even for more senior, and even leadership positions, all the way up to C-Level. Whoever had a brush with a report or a peer that behaved badly knows that sometimes you need a second opinion not to be biased and to not take it personally.

The one thing you don't want to do is to talk about these things with a report or with a co-worker, and I've seen too many managers making this mistake with me.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

You're not alone. Our experiences are similar. I'm not sure if that's comforting or not. The one saving grace for me is I do have enough savings to get me through a depression. I know that's not a luxury for everyone, though.

How long is the average depression though? I still have my parents for a while, but they will be dead in 10 years...

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#155
post #50
post #18

I like the advice here: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar... (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience). I also wrote something here on how to stand out: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-... Finally, you ask: > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd be most suited for? That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,…

I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic colleagues and horrible working conditions, but knowing what you do not want is valuable too. And having bad workplaces early on is cheaper than having bad workplaces later in life. All in all, I'm trying to emphasize that a job in the field you want will almost always be beneficial when you're starting ou…

Definitely agree with this. To learn good leadership you have to see bad leadership; to create a genuinely good environment you have to see what happens to make a bad one, etc. etc.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#156

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

I have a similar story. Graduated as an undergrad into the teeth of the dotcom crash. Took an opportunity to pick up a master's degree essentially "for free" because it's not like I was going to get a job in that environment. Graduated into still a very weak job market.

One of the saddest memories not related to the usual stuff like funerals and such is the job fair at the university after graduation. I bought a suit. I shouldn't have bothered. (Only worn it once more since then!) When I first walked up it looked OK; had like 15 booths. But EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. was just collecting resumes and telling you they didn't have any openings. Would have preferred to just attend an empty job fair or have been told it was cancelled. That was a truly crushing half an hour.

Took a relatively crap job after that. It actually wasn't bad on a personal level, it wasn't like I hated it, but, no future. Obviously a dead end. Crap job. Went to work for a similar crap job at a startup after that, which was pretty lucky itself. The out-of-work-hours noodling I did led to a real job, a few years later.

Do what you need to do. May not even be a programmer job. My personal opinion, which shouldn't be taken as anything more than that, is that A: the next few years are going to be rough, possibly rougher than the dotcom crash but B: in the end, programmer is still a good career choice. Companies simply can not compete without automation any more. Software will continue to eat the world for the forseeable future. I don't expect AI or low-code to do much more than peck at the opportunities available. (Maybe I'm wrong, but if we do get to the point that AI really does successfully replace programmers we have essentially hit the singularity and all bets are off.)

Programmers also have had and will continue to have the unusual ability that many other disciplines do not have where you can continue to learn skills even if you are underemployed. It's hard to practice industrial-scale chemical engineering at home while you're unemployed, but you can learn Rust, or Terraform, or AWS, or source control, or whatever, and even into the teeth of an underemployment period you can still be developing. That helped me and I recommend putting at least some effort into that.

Just don't forget that while learning Rust is more fun, it's not putting resumes out there, hitting trade shows, networking, etc. That is way less fun and much more emotionally expensive, but more likely to lead to even that job that puts food on the table.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#157
I graduated in 2008 and entered the job market during probably the deepest recession in my country. I was lucky that I landed a grant which ensured my job for the next 4 years. This was both a blessing and a curse. Let me explain.

During and after the recession unemployment rate soared past 25%. 2/3 of my company got laid off during that period. At some point more than half of my friends were unemployed. Having a stable job you can count for years to come was an incredible perk.

However this security bred both complacency and toxicity. My boss started saying things like "you are lucky you got a job", "we are doing you a favour letting you work here" or "there are no jobs out there" (BTW I'm seeing echoes of this in some managers these days). Although the job was terrible, I was conditioned to have extremely low expectations.

At the end I spent the first 7 years of my career in a low performing and toxic organization. I was so severely underpaid that when I finally changed jobs, I 4x my pay without trying too hard. The rest is history.

So if I had to capture my lessons in a tip is: do whatever you need to "survive" the recession, but keep an eye on the market and be quick to jump when the tide turns.

I'll never know how much I would have turbocharged my career if I had jumped at the beginning of the longest bull market in history rather than languishing in a career dead end.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#159
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point there is no way any software company could justify, legally, hiring someone on an H1B. There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number of those are US citizens. Any company claiming that they can’t find a US citizen with the right skills is lying.

The Visa situation is very bad , but technically for better or worse it’s how the system was designed to work. H1Bs are meant to supplement the domestic supply of certain skills to meet demand. If demand drops (or as is happening with now supply increases) then it becomes hard to justify why one needs to hire an H1B over say someone already eligible for employment. Companies always game the system but it’s going to v…

One thing that would be quite reasonable is a longer Visa grace period after losing a job. I don't see what harm this would do. The Visa grace period is currently 50% shorter than a tourist visa to give context.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm... that's a crazy ratio. Mine sits around that 5:4:3 ratio. I've rarely even had to apply for a position -- usually just got headhunted. I started about 13 years ago, and even my first job at a big tech company (LinkedIn), I was scouted. I don't even have a CS degree. I'm curious what your discipline is in?

Congratulations on your lucky career timing! Like many in HN's demographic, if you started 13 years ago (2010) or less, then you've so far never had to work in a bear market. Actually your timing is astonishing, entering the industry right after the last downturn. Well done :) In an extended bear market / downturn, throw that ratio out the window. Unless you're literally John Carmack or Ken Thompson, you're not going…

I started my career in 2008 in the UK, just as the GFC was hitting, with no degree. Yet, I had a ratio like 5:5:4.

I assumed the UK had it worse than the USA, but maybe not?

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