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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

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Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#61

Post by nyanpasu64 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #33
ryandrake wrote: post #22

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

If I'm unemployed and dropped out from college due to stress and burnout (still ongoing, compounded by a psychologically-unsafe living environment), and would have to fill out hundreds of job applications to find a job, and doing so is unmanageable and beyond my capabilities, is it easier to not find a job and stop trying to stay alive?

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#62

Post by Traubenfuchs »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #42
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

Connections, connections, connections. Reach out to every friend, old coworker, etc. especially those that are in management now. Catch up and get a pulse for how their company situation is right now--if they're weathering the downturn well, going through layoffs, etc. If you do get laid off you can reach out to these folks immediately and get recommendations or even just feedback on your resume. The sooner you start…

I got the great job at my current small-medium sized company through connections. 6 of us together switched there from the same company. Yet it‘s a not a big company, it could die and be replaced anytime. Previously I have worked at too big to fail (government) behemots which is indeed calming.

I also have a good friend who is already department head in my countries biggest bank. I keep telling me he can always get me a job when I can‘t fall asleep.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#63

Post by Our_Benefactors »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #42
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s, 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of my company going under and me having to compete in this market. I…

Connections, connections, connections. Reach out to every friend, old coworker, etc. especially those that are in management now. Catch up and get a pulse for how their company situation is right now--if they're weathering the downturn well, going through layoffs, etc. If you do get laid off you can reach out to these folks immediately and get recommendations or even just feedback on your resume. The sooner you start…

> New grads have it a lot easier in the open market IMHO.

Maybe the top 10% of new CS grads have it easy, by virtue of having easier access to university -> big tech hiring pipelines for junior engineers.

But there’s no comparison to the ease of being a senior and having job offers flood in to your LinkedIn on a weekly basis. Getting a new job becomes a function of simply contacting the past 5 recruiters and asking for the interview.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#64

Post by claytongulick »

jedberg wrote: post #57

My advice to an undergrad is: Go to grad school. Now is the perfect time to apply, and generally CS/EE students get paid to attend by having their tuition paid for by their advisor and getting a stipend for research/TA jobs. There is also government money to be had. Ride out the storm in Grad school, gain some skills, and expand your network. When you finish the economy should be good again. If you're a grad student,…

I think this advice is highly dependent on career goals.

What sort of work is interesting to you, and why?

Going to grad school is only a good idea if there's something specific you're trying to learn. It's a means not an ends.

For someone who doesn't have real life work experience in their field, I don't think it's the best idea.

I think working in the industry for a few years (at least) and seeing the types of jobs and work that are available is a better approach.

After you have some experience and want to specialize in a specific thing (AI/ML, etc...) going to grad school might make sense, depending.

When I'm hiring, it's actually a bit of a red flag for me to see a resume with a graduate degree and no work experience - but the positions I hire for tend to be very practical business development types things, not really that appropriate for graduate level.

Unfortunately, that's 90%+ of the market.

Many hiring managers will be hesitant to hire you in that situation, because the assumption is that you're overqualified, under experienced, and will leave for a more senior opportunity as soon as you get the chance.

I was given the advice to avoid going to grad school early in my career, and I'm glad I followed it.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#65

Post by giantg2 »

notch656c wrote: post #32
ryandrake wrote: post #22

I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot. The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at five companies" are no longer reality. My application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1 to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or w…

Great recession grad. 1000:100:10:1 app:phone_screen:interview:offer In general divide the first number by 10 if you have at least 12 months post grad professional experience. If you have a shiny high GPA diploma from a top school but no intern or any experience whatsoever change last two numbers to zero.

At the end of the great recession for me. 250:3:1:1

The biggest thing that helped me was having some Android apps. Another was that I had some COBOL knowledge. I also lowballed my salary request, which might have helped me get the job , but I'm still paying for that today.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#66

Post by giantg2 »

notch656c wrote: post #51
rqtwteye wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2003 it went to 100:1:0:0 for me for more than a year. It was a rude awakening after thinking that I was a high demand pro during the .COM bubble. Definitely taught me to hold onto my money.

Yep. I'm a fucking miser. My entry into the work world was 10+% unemployment and brutal cut throat for minimum wage. The idea I'll be cut at any moment and be jobless for years is burned into my mind so money is guarded preciously. Also I'll never forget just how rude and pretentious recruiters were during that time with their new found power. You see the true colors in such times.

"The idea I'll be cut at any moment and be jobless for years"

I've felt this way for a few years now.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#67

Post by jedberg »

claytongulick wrote: post #64
jedberg wrote: post #57

My advice to an undergrad is: Go to grad school. Now is the perfect time to apply, and generally CS/EE students get paid to attend by having their tuition paid for by their advisor and getting a stipend for research/TA jobs. There is also government money to be had. Ride out the storm in Grad school, gain some skills, and expand your network. When you finish the economy should be good again. If you're a grad student,…

I think this advice is highly dependent on career goals. What sort of work is interesting to you, and why? Going to grad school is only a good idea if there's something specific you're trying to learn. It's a means not an ends. For someone who doesn't have real life work experience in their field, I don't think it's the best idea. I think working in the industry for a few years (at least) and seeing the types of jobs…

You're ignoring the context of the post. This is advice for what a new grad should do right now in this particular economy.

You're right that grad school is more effective after working a few years, but its still a better option that starvation if you can get into grad school with a stipend.

And if you throw away the resumes of someone who went straight to grad school, you're just missing out on a lot of good candidates.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#68

Post by rumdonut »

micro_cam wrote: post #15

I've been in the ML/data space for 20 years and went through the 2008 cycle early in my career. I'm not hiring at the moment but am always happy to review resumes and give career advice as part of networking so feel free to ping me. Reaching out to managers at big cos won't get you much. They are getting a ton of twitter/etc candidates and have stricter hiring policies and rubrics to prevent nepotism and favoritism.…

Somewhat unrelated but a remark of yours was interesting to me. You mentioned PhDs sometimes have previous engineering experience; did you find it common for ML PhDs to have waited a few years before entering a program? I’m exploring doing the same but had thought the ship had sailed, now that I’m in industry.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#69

Post by syntaxing »

MechE so I don’t fit your CS/EE ask exactly. I posted this before, tech is a small percentage of engineering. There’s plenty of good engineering jobs out there. Sure, the pay and benefits won’t be as good as tech but it’s still fulfilling in its own way. And you’ll still make a relatively cushy wage where you should be able to thrive, not just survive.

Re: Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads entering the market?

#70

Post by time_to_smile »

nemo44x wrote: post #27
time_to_smile wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the optimism but I suspect we're still in the early stages of this process. There's lots of bubble to unwind here, and this mess hasn't even started to untangle. I recently came across this quote from PG in one of his earlier essays [0] describing the early days of the dotcom bust regarding yahoo. Sounds very similar to the situation we're in now: > It was not just our price to earnings ratio that was bogus. H…

We are nothing like that situation. This was a common problem in the .com bust days in that the money was often just being passed around. Double Click had a similar situation where they had a good business but many of their customers didn't. But they (and other solid business) did make it through the purge and went on to be big successes. Today we have an ecosystem that is far more diverse and what I'd call "real". Y…

> We are nothing like that situation

Agreed because this time the asset bubble extends well beyond tech. This is a much larger problem and will take much longer to unwind, cutting much deeper than that.

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