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In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

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Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#141

Post by qsort »

opportune wrote: post #128
deskamess wrote: post #42

Pretty much most senior level/grad algorithm classes are like this. They introduce a framework for solution and then give you about 2-3 example lecture problems that they walk you through. 2-3 weeks after being introduced to 5/6 frameworks its Exam day. You are given unique word problems that, in the eyes of someone experienced like a prof or PhD student, is trivial. But you are struggling with 1 week of homework exp…

I did well in Algorithms courses (I took 4-5 and TA’d the intro class). I also studied math on top of CS. Imo a lot of the problem that CS students face in algorithms is due to not having a mathematical background. Even though you are introduced to concepts like invariants, induction, and propositional logic in a discrete math class, IMO it takes more exposure and practice to get to the point where these concepts get…

This.

There's a lot of babbling about how coding is the limiting factor, but it really isn't. What people struggle with is solving the problems in their head. Writing the actual code after you've done that is almost trivial.

Another angle is how you need to think in abstract terms in the solution space. Most people whose knowledge of algorithms is weak think like: "okay, the problem says the word 'array' so I probably need a quicksort here". People who are successful think like "if this array were sorted, I could search an element in O(lg n) time instead of O(lg n). Can I solve the problem with this additional hypothesis?".

It's almost like being a chess player: when you're weak you come up with moves and hope they work, when you get stronger you look at a position and come up with plans and reasons why certain moves will or will not work.

The top-down mode of thinking is how you write a solution but not how you come up with one, the actual process is more "inside out", you find out stuff thinking about the problem and then you connect the dots.

Part of it is just experience and wit, but much can be taught, and formal mathematics helps the most.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#142

Post by _pastel »

I had a graduate algorithms class that was graded like this, but the teacher didn't explain and I was clueless. I spent the whole semester super stressed and convinced I was failing, then was shocked and befuddled by an A. "Emotionally trying" is an accurate description of how it felt.

Props to this professor; struggling in confusion is a lot more fun if you know that's the game you're supposed to be playing.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#143

Post by smcl »

solarmist wrote: post #38
xupybd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, my wording was poor. You can go from Bachelor's to PHD but only if you achieve first class honours. Here honours is an additional year of study as well.

That's another big difference with the US. Honors are about GPA here, nothing else. The whole A-level system was confusing for a long time because of this kind of conflation of terms between the systems.

Honours are grading-related (in Scotland at least) as well. After three years study if you pass but not very well you'll be able to graduate with, say, a "BSc". If you have good enough grades you can do a fourth year and shoot for a "BSc (Hons)". The qualification you get after the fourth year depends on your average grades, either:

- honours of the first class (aka a "first")

- honours of the second class (two levels: upper and middle, aka a "2:1" or a "2:2")

- honours of the third class (aka a "third")

- fail, in which case you get an "ordinary" degree

So when this person is reporting that you needed "first class honours" to go directly to a PHd, they're saying you needed to sit that final fourth year and finish with an average grade of (I think) an "A"

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#144

Post by guntherhermann »

deskamess wrote: post #42

Pretty much most senior level/grad algorithm classes are like this. They introduce a framework for solution and then give you about 2-3 example lecture problems that they walk you through. 2-3 weeks after being introduced to 5/6 frameworks its Exam day. You are given unique word problems that, in the eyes of someone experienced like a prof or PhD student, is trivial. But you are struggling with 1 week of homework exp…

This describes some of my CS modules experience down to a tee. Overall I had a great time and I look back on the whole experience fondly, but those few modules where nothing clicked, nothing made sense and the examples given never fit the work I had to do...

This was before the days of YouTube where you could look and study up hundreds of videos on the topic to finally find the one that clicks, which is a remarkable thing to have access to.

I'm not clever, but I am resolute, and having an unyielding attitude to obstacles is what has gotten me this far in my career.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#145

Post by smcl »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #139

> On exam day you are just emotionally devastated looking at the problem not knowing where to start I honestly understand the frustration,but not the "emotionally devasted" part. Emotionally devasted to me means losing someone. When I studied CS I went to the exams knowing very well if I had studied or not and how much, and did not expect anything. The exam was the easiest part, you either know how to solve the probl…

Where are you reading "emotionally devastated" - both the Tweet and the title say they were described as "emotionally trying".

That said, I can easily see someone going through the stress of the exam period, maybe juggling that with part-time work to pay for bills, studying extensively to the brink of burnout and describing feeling "devastated" when they can't crack a few questions in an important exam they thought they'd studied appropriately.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#146

Post by torben-friis »

xyzzyz wrote: post #104
haswell wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things more quickly and getting better ideas, you should probably just drop out I'm sorry, but even if this is true under some circumstances, this seems like terrible general advice, and only matters if your only goal is to reach the top echelons of your field. That doesn't mean there is no room for "a…

> That doesn't mean there is no room for "average" researchers. The "average" researchers are doing disservice themselves, the people funding their research, and actually good researchers. They are doing disservice themselves, because they would have most likely enjoyed much higher success at some other career or lifestyle. An "average" researcher at age 35 is rather poor, his or her life is rather unstable and preca…

Man, this mindset really seems like a recipe for a miserable life.

We are not machines whose output must be optimized over anything else, for the joy of our investor overlords.

Do what you enjoy doing, and if you don’t happen to be the best out of 7 billion people then congrats, you’re statistically normal.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#147

Post by diordiderot »

com2kid wrote: post #5

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revolution?" Even better were the questions that ended in "why or why not?" There were no right or wrong answers, if you could justify your answer in a reasonable manner, you got full points. Some students hated his tests, some students loved his tests. The students…

> asked your opinion on topics

This is how International baccalaureate, french baccalaureate, and English A-levels courses generally go.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#148

Post by abdullahkhalids »

watwut wrote: post #138
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give you prof perspective on this. Going between different stages of education, you can't really double or triple the amount of time you study, but you need to change your study and thinking techniques to learn 2x or 3x more [1]. The problem is that if the teachers try to set up too easy a ramp at the start of a new stage, many students refuse to upgrade their study/thinking techniques. They continue to use sub…

Jolting people with assessments where old techniques don't work is fine as long as you don't do it first time on exam. But also, students here just want to know whether they are expected to give detailed reasoning or less detailed one. How many questions they need to answer to get A. Basic stuff about rules.

A lot of courses can indeed be improved by being more legible in expectations. But there is actually a counterpoint. As you make your course more legible past a certain point, there arise the "lawyer" students. They will use the rules laid out to weasel out of work, to to get a grade bump - long and tedious bad faith argumentation.

Its actually the kind of thing you don't see till you actually become a teacher and try to make these sort of changes. The only way out is to have a a minimal amount of illegibility that allows the prof to actually stop these students in their tracks. Time and again I have seen new profs try to be legible and then realize a year later that there is a limit to it.

In general, course design would be so much better if students cooperated. I would have all my exams be take home, open book (but solo work). But what do I do about the 20% of the students who have zero respect for any sort of honor code and even less fear of any consequences? You don't even have to hunt for the existence of these students. On many cheating related threads on HN, a frighteningly people openly and proudly say that they will and have cheated because its only the degree that matters.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#149

Post by cycomanic »

xyzzyz wrote: post #63
deskamess wrote: post #42

Pretty much most senior level/grad algorithm classes are like this. They introduce a framework for solution and then give you about 2-3 example lecture problems that they walk you through. 2-3 weeks after being introduced to 5/6 frameworks its Exam day. You are given unique word problems that, in the eyes of someone experienced like a prof or PhD student, is trivial. But you are struggling with 1 week of homework exp…

> But there are smart people who get all this stuff "easily" (previous practice, exposure). Or, simply by virtue of being more intelligent. Life is not fair, and some people do have it easier than others, without having to pay for it with extra study time. If you are pursuing a research career, and you observe other students putting similar amounts of effort, but obtaining much better results, understanding things mo…

Funny thing, as a researcher myself one thing the main thing that makes you successful in my experience is a high frustration threshold. While there are some truly brilliant people, even then run into roadblocks, dead ends etc.. It makes sense you are venturing out into the unknown (that's what research is really), not giving up when getting stuck is what makes people achieve something.

Re: In the past, I've had students call my problem sets “emotionally trying”

#150

Post by torben-friis »

com2kid wrote: post #5

My favorite history professor in college gave open book essay exams. He asked your opinion on topics, "what were the motivations of the leaders of the US revolution?" Even better were the questions that ended in "why or why not?" There were no right or wrong answers, if you could justify your answer in a reasonable manner, you got full points. Some students hated his tests, some students loved his tests. The students…

In my country, the system to access university includes a philosophy exam that works similarly. You are given a text to understand, summarise, discuss, and compare with a different author.

They are testing for reading skills, reasoning and expression, so there is no good answer - knowing the works of different authors just makes it more likely that you'll know some ideas similar to the text at hand, but if you don't happen to know something similar you can, say, get a text by Marx and compare it to Plato, as long as you make a decent argument on the connection.

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