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A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

economist.com

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Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#71

Post by refurb »

maxerickson wrote: post #51
rayiner wrote: post #40

Understanding the development of Western Europe is one of the most important things historians could be doing right now. Because those lessons can be applied to help developing nations follow the same trajectory to development. Unfortunately too much of academia is fixated on faulting the west for past injustices, which leads to an unproductive Eurocentric mindset. (Britain will never, and cannot, pay back India what…

Lots of developing countries currently have per capita GDP comparable to western European countries in 1980 (Like as an example, Netherlands vs Vietnam). Why not look at somewhat more modern lessons?

Netherlands had a GDP per capita of $13,000 USD in 1980, equivalent to $49,000 USD today.

Vietnam had a GDP per capita of $13,000 USD today.

They aren’t even close.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#72

Post by mikewarot »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #18
perrygeo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. We have plenty of examples of past civilizations experiencing similar economic conditions, slavery, etc. So why didn't e.g. the Romans have an industrial revolution of this scale? Coal (and exploitation of fossil fuels more generally) is the singular factor that differentiates the industrial revolution from everything before it.

Industrial Revolution of course requires industrial machines. So as long as the machines are not invented, no revolution can start.

There was a workshop turning out the Antikythera mechanism, it wasn't a one-off device. It had a user manual.

Lathes go ever further back.

Whoever built the pyramids had sufficient precision to make flat surfaces similar to modern surface plates.

The machines have been around for a very long time, powering them with other machines was part of it.

There's a lot to untangle here.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#73

Post by fsckboy »

Merrill wrote: post #59
BirAdam wrote: post #12

As far as I know, the Industrial Revolution started with coal mining. As shafts got deeper there was a need to pump in water and air, and then to lift product out. These steam engines at the site could run on low quality coal allowing all of the good stuff to be sold. The Industrial Revolution really started with these mines in the UK. As regards slavery and other factors, once the steam engines were invented and beg…

Slaves/serfs make economic sense primarily on a plantation/manor where they can be given use of a small plot where they construct a shelter and raise their own food. They receive little or no subsidies from the planter/lord. The difference is that serfs are attached to the manor instead of being owned by the planter. Thus, serfs are not sold, but change lords by inheritance, marriage, or other changes in land rights.…

>The difference is that serfs are attached to the manor instead of being owned by the planter

just want to point out (though I'm not an expert) attaching serfs to the land was a step forward in serf rights. I think (particularly in eastern europe), serfs didn't necessarily have the right to stay on the land.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#74

Post by fsckboy »

Retric wrote: post #48
adventured wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Serfdom was rare in the UK by 1400 You're of course only talking about local slavery in the UK. They were among the primary slave traders outside of their home territory. The British Empire and its prominent subjects traded in millions of slaves between 1400 and 1800. Centuries of profit from that slave trade helped fuel investment into industrialization across the UK. This is a common escape for European apologist…

I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade” The point was slavery was economically and politically viable in the American south far longer than Europe. It’s a reasonable argument to suggest Europe outsourced and profited from slavery, but it also wasn’t in peoples faces just as few people consider the working conditions of the 3rd world today when they buy stu…

>I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade”

You didn't actually mention that slavery was legal in many British crown colonies including the American colonies, which wasn't just "happy participation by merchants", but was day to day life for many UK subjects. "Slavery ended in the British Empire after the Slavery Abolition Act came into play in 1833", about 30 years before it ended in the US, a former British Colony independent less than 100 years at that time, a short time by any standards.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#75

Post by fsckboy »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #18
perrygeo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. We have plenty of examples of past civilizations experiencing similar economic conditions, slavery, etc. So why didn't e.g. the Romans have an industrial revolution of this scale? Coal (and exploitation of fossil fuels more generally) is the singular factor that differentiates the industrial revolution from everything before it.

Industrial Revolution of course requires industrial machines. So as long as the machines are not invented, no revolution can start.

> Industrial Revolution of course requires industrial machines. So as long as the machines are not invented, no revolution can start.

you clearly are not giving enough credit to slavery which is the whole point of this exercise. How are we going to build a case for reparations with you talking like that? :)

I'm not defending anything about slavery, but just as impoverished working class Britons contributed little to the British industrial revolution, but did both suffer and benefit from it, the same goes for slaves. The industrialization of industry would not have been possible without the industrialization of agriculture which created an unemployed labor pool available for urban industrial revolutionary work, just as we saw play out in the recent history of China.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#76

Post by Retric »

wutbrodo wrote: post #62
adventured wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Serfdom was rare in the UK by 1400 You're of course only talking about local slavery in the UK. They were among the primary slave traders outside of their home territory. The British Empire and its prominent subjects traded in millions of slaves between 1400 and 1800. Centuries of profit from that slave trade helped fuel investment into industrialization across the UK. This is a common escape for European apologist…

My rough model was always simply that all the Western powers practiced African slavery in that period, in the regions in which it was useful (hot, humid, agricultural ones). The same dynamics that led America to have slavery in Mississippi but not Boston led the English/UK to have it in Kingston but not London

Just to be clear there was never African slavery in Kingston England.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#77

Post by klntsky »

diego_moita wrote: post #11

I find interesting these studies that compare the behaviour of similar cities that got different outcomes. Another one I saw years ago was made in Germany, to test the Max Weber hypothesis that the Protestant Ethics fostered capitalism. The study compared the growth of both Catholic and Protestant cities. It found no significant difference in the rate of growth. The factor that actually had the most impact on growth…

> The study compared the growth of both Catholic and Protestant cities

This is misunderstanding of the thesis. Ideas make changes _possible_. It's not like there is simply more change in places where more people adhere to the new ideas.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#78

Post by thworp »

Thermosetty wrote: post #64

Chattel slavery not only fueled the industrial revolution but laid the foundation for our modern world. Capital accumulation, investment of capital, private ownership of the means of production (people), high levels of wage (free) labor and efficient (non-paid) use of the factors of production (people) - are all mechanisms of capitalism that reach their maximum potential under the conditions of chattel slavery.

Yes, what a great point! This is why Mauritania had all of the world's richest men until 1981 when they outlawed slavery. If they hadn't done that Bezos and Musk would have nothing on the founders of Mauritanian SlaveTrade Corporation.

Similarly it's why southern plantation owners where by far the richest people in America until the civil war. Carnegie and Vanderbilt had nothing on them. Strange though that nobody knows their names, must be censored by the Neo-Confederacy.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#79

Post by Retric »

fsckboy wrote: post #74
Retric wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade” The point was slavery was economically and politically viable in the American south far longer than Europe. It’s a reasonable argument to suggest Europe outsourced and profited from slavery, but it also wasn’t in peoples faces just as few people consider the working conditions of the 3rd world today when they buy stu…

> I actually mentioned that: “English merchants where happy to participate in the American slave trade” You didn't actually mention that slavery was legal in many British crown colonies including the American colonies, which wasn't just "happy participation by merchants", but was day to day life for many UK subjects. "Slavery ended in the British Empire after the Slavery Abolition Act came into play in 1833", about 3…

The 1833 act only impacted an economically insignificant number of people, which is why it could pass. Notably it excluded lands held but the British East India company.

“Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. They resettled many in Jamaica and the Bahamas” and no that’s not a euphemism for enslaving them in Jamaica and the Bahamas.

Re: A flurry of new studies identifies causes of the Industrial Revolution

#80

Post by woolion »

ska wrote: post #44
runsWphotons wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China had steam engines?

Sort of; so did Egypt - but these were more steam devices not engines per se. I think the limiting factor was metallurgy & pressure vessel design before you can do something like Watt did.

Do you have references? I'd be interested to learn about the subject. Quick search gave me [0] for Egypt and [1] for China, and both answers seem to be "not really".

[0] https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/1991/was-the-steam-e...

[1] https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2012/did-the-chi...

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