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EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

nature.com

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Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#71

Post by tguvot »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #18
prottog wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This further degrades the meaning of owning private property.

Unless it's voluntary (which it darned well better be). I envision a future where individual appliances (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they consume (or produce). That would naturally incentivize charging during off-peak hours and discharging during peak hours, all without requiring any government incentives or coercion. It could also be useful for other major appliances which could ben…

a bunch of appliances already can be aware of TOU pricing and run when it's atlowest. Many thermostats can be "auto-adjusted" based on grid load

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#72

Post by trompetenaccoun »

cschmid wrote: post #59

The Taiwanese scooter company Gogoro recently announced something similar: Their scooters come with swappable batteries that you rent. The swapping station they have throughout the city are basically walls full of batteries. Since the company owns all the batteries, they can then use them to provide power to the grid during peak load.

That makes more sense as it can be better planned based on projected demand. They also have more batteries than customers. With individual car owners, they often can't charge when it's convenient for the grid because they drive their car and need it when they need it.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#73

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

burkaman wrote: post #57
martinflack wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't even let people with solar panels feed their excess power to the grid. Is that true? If so, TIL...

It is not true, but they do make it very hard in some places and as a group utilities do kind of hate the idea. Almost all states require net metering, which what allows people to sell their solar to the grid, and there is some federal regulation too ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005 ). Despite these requirements most utilities make it pretty hard to set up.

I opted NOT to sell my excess to PNM (New Mexico), because the agreement allowed them to claim my 6.7kW array as part of their own progress towards renewable conversion.

What I didn't understand was that I ended up with an even better deal! I get back the excess kW/h on a 1:1 basis. This is much better "pricing" than I would have received if I had sold it for cash.

Granted this model only works if there's a part of the year when you produce more than you need and another part of the year where you produce less. Since we heat more or less exclusively with electric air source heat pumps, but need no heat or a/c during summer, this works extremely well for us.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#74

Post by jahewson »

mhb wrote: post #66
rtkwe wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the issue isn't the controls to do that it's that the prices to compensate wear on a battery are a) likely significantly higher than the base price and b) pretty hard to calculate.

That's what a market is for.

There is no market. I can only sell electricity to PG&E and only at a flat rate.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#75

Post by rlpb »

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #34
whazor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling electricity is compensation, like with solar panels. You only need hourly energy prices to make it profitable. Plus an app that does the profitability calculation and discharging.

Sounds similar to Uber using a contractor vehicle's hidden depreciation and maintenance to shift the real cost of their service. I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to individual car owners. Maybe we'll start to be asked whenever we plug in our phones to tip the owner of a car our electricity is coming from.

> I doubt the hourly price will ever truly be fair to individual car owners.

If it's not fair to them, then they won't participate, and the market will adjust.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#76

Post by mhb »

jahewson wrote: post #74
mhb wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what a market is for.

There is no market. I can only sell electricity to PG&E and only at a flat rate.

That is a market. You can decide to sell or not. Whether PG&E offers a market clearing price is a separate issue.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#77

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #58
nkingsy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes much more sense with large lifepo4 chemistry batteries that are expected to outlive the car by a wide margin. Lifepo4 batteries > 50kwh should easily handle 500,000 miles. Higher performance lithium ion will degrade at a rate faster than any expected return from a scheme like this. At least in Northern California it’s now cheaper for me to run solar+battery off grid than to pay pge. Lifepo4 pushes it over…

> If off-grid is competitive, selling at peak prices is a no brainer. So why isn't the utility managing the storage directly then? Aren't they best suited to do this??? Or is this article just saying that EV car batteries could ?

Utilities buy most of their power at wholesale rates, which are lower than the consumer rate they charge the end user. Net metering rules in some jurisdictions obligate the utilities to buy solar/battery power from users at consumer rates. That can be a good financial opportunity for homeowners and it’s driven a lot of the investment in home solar setups. But local policies can change. The rules are changing in California and it’s not going to be such a good deal anymore in the future.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#78

Post by bryanlarsen »

georgeg23 wrote: post #50
bryanlarsen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using your numbers: 300000 miles / 320 miles/cycle = 938 cycles. 938 cycles * 72kWh = 67500 kWh. $12000 / 67500 = 18 cents. Dunno where I got my 2 cents from, that calculation was done 2 months ago.

I agree with your 18 cents/kWh. That's slightly more than the average cost of electricity in the US?.. That is interesting, that means for home-charging your electric cost (per mile) is about equal to the battery degradation cost. Thats 2x cost than most think.

Your whole car depreciates, not just the battery. Depreciation cost for driving a mile is a lot more than the electricity cost.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#79

Post by bryanlarsen »

georgeg23 wrote: post #50
bryanlarsen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using your numbers: 300000 miles / 320 miles/cycle = 938 cycles. 938 cycles * 72kWh = 67500 kWh. $12000 / 67500 = 18 cents. Dunno where I got my 2 cents from, that calculation was done 2 months ago.

I agree with your 18 cents/kWh. That's slightly more than the average cost of electricity in the US?.. That is interesting, that means for home-charging your electric cost (per mile) is about equal to the battery degradation cost. Thats 2x cost than most think.

They'll only want to buy back electricity at times when demand exceeds supply. In Texas the price of electricity is $9/kWh during those times.

Re: EV batteries alone could satisfy short-term grid storage demand as early as 2030

#80

Post by bryanlarsen »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #28
Ajedi32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it's voluntary (which it darned well better be). I envision a future where individual appliances (including EVs) can opt in to spot pricing for the electricity they consume (or produce). That would naturally incentivize charging during off-peak hours and discharging during peak hours, all without requiring any government incentives or coercion. It could also be useful for other major appliances which could ben…

Lots of now-compulsory things started out as voluntary.

Pretty hard to make it compulsory if you can avoid it by (at worst) unplugging your car.
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