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Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

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Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#361

Post by mindslight »

pydry wrote: post #359
mindslight wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the threat model is to protect against an overt military invasion by the US, geographical features aren't going to matter much either. Furthermore, national borders do seem to matter very much to many people. Europeans widely condemned the Iraq war, because they saw through its false pretenses. And the borders we're talking about are shared with Europeans. But regardless, the countries the US has invaded still hav…

>If the threat model is to protect against an overt military invasion by the US, geographical features aren't going to matter much either. The US made the mistake of thinking that geographical features didn't pose them a problem in Afghanistan. Then they realized how incredibly frail their supply chains could be when geography wasnt in their favor. That mistake cost trillions. >But regardless, the countries the US ha…

Sure, geography matters when your country has so little development that retreating to the mountains is a successful strategy. But that doesn't really say much about a developed country that would suffer significant losses by retreating to natural cover.

> This is the most absurd excuse for American imperialism I think I've ever heard.

I'm not excusing American imperialism. I am against American imperialism - note how I readily described Iraq as becoming part of the US empire, as opposed to the usual rejection of the idea that the US is an empire. However I am against Russian imperialism as well, and this situation is rooted in Russian imperialism.

> So, America wants Russia to end up like Libya. Russia doesnt want to end up like Libya.

Once again you're trying to justify offensive conquest by invoking the necessity of defense. If Russia was/is going to "end up like Libya", this has only been made more likely by Russia invading its neighbor.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#362

Post by aeternum »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #358
aeternum wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To see Putin as a weak evildoer is falling for US propaganda. The truth is more nuanced. Strong powers take advantage of weak powers and the US is no exception. We do it by expanding NATO territory. There are also arguments to be made that the US pushed Putin into the war. As it is a strategic move to have russia use up its arms fighting a neighbor rather than the US. The war also greatly increased US natgas exports…

1. NATO expansion isn't driven by US imperialism. We aren't conquering countries and forcing them to join; they are asking to join - and not because we're tying a big aid package to NATO membership. They're joining because they're worried about Russian imperialism. 2. You say it's accepting propaganda to see Putin as weak. But you see him as being pushed into war by the US. That's not something that happens to someon…

Sure, Putin is not a good leader for Russia, he's power-hungry and does not seem to have the best interests of the Russian people in mind. However by those same metrics you should consider US leadership as also being a weak evildoer.

Is it good or evil to push other countries into war knowing that thousands will die?

Is it good or evil to profit off the resulting energy crisis?

Is it even smart to risk a global nuclear war to destroy outdated arms and decades old tanks?

Is it good or evil to trigger economic collapse via sanctions causing starvation both inside the country and to export nations? Don't we consider Mao and Stalin some of the most evil people that ever lived for doing the same? Starvation is a terrible way to die yet it isn't even seen as collateral damage.

Putin will die anyway in the next couple decades. It made no sense to poke the bear and trigger all this. It ultimately just strengthens China and increases the amount of global suffering.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#363

Post by AnimalMuppet »

aeternum wrote: post #362
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. NATO expansion isn't driven by US imperialism. We aren't conquering countries and forcing them to join; they are asking to join - and not because we're tying a big aid package to NATO membership. They're joining because they're worried about Russian imperialism. 2. You say it's accepting propaganda to see Putin as weak. But you see him as being pushed into war by the US. That's not something that happens to someon…

Sure, Putin is not a good leader for Russia, he's power-hungry and does not seem to have the best interests of the Russian people in mind. However by those same metrics you should consider US leadership as also being a weak evildoer. Is it good or evil to push other countries into war knowing that thousands will die? Is it good or evil to profit off the resulting energy crisis? Is it even smart to risk a global nucle…

The US did not push Russia into this war. Putin chose this war.

All your moralizing is completely missing the point, because you are assigning cause to the wrong agents.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#364

Post by pydry »

mindslight wrote: post #361
pydry wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the threat model is to protect against an overt military invasion by the US, geographical features aren't going to matter much either. The US made the mistake of thinking that geographical features didn't pose them a problem in Afghanistan. Then they realized how incredibly frail their supply chains could be when geography wasnt in their favor. That mistake cost trillions. >But regardless, the countries the US ha…

Sure, geography matters when your country has so little development that retreating to the mountains is a successful strategy. But that doesn't really say much about a developed country that would suffer significant losses by retreating to natural cover. > This is the most absurd excuse for American imperialism I think I've ever heard. I'm not excusing American imperialism. I am against American imperialism - note ho…

>Sure, geography matters

It more than matters. It dictates the very shape of humanity.

>But that doesn't really say much about a developed country

It matters as much to developed countries as it does to non developed. Switzerland didn't get wealthy by being easy to invade.

>However I am against Russian imperialism as well, and this situation is rooted in Russian imperialism.

Realistically treating Russian defense concerns as a sheer irrelevance is helping to perpetuate this war.

We can be aggressive imperialists or we can stay out of their neighborhood but we can't be both and not provoke a reaction. You can condemn Russian imperialism all you like but if you threaten the bear it will still claw your eyes out.

>Once again you're trying to justify offensive conquest by invoking the necessity of defense. If Russia was/is going to "end up like Libya", this has only been made more likely by Russia invading its neighbor.

The scary part is that this just isnt true. Control over Sevastopol and the land bridge to crimea puts them in a much better defensive position than before.

Destroying western Ukraine ("demilitarising") as a viable functioning state also renders it much less useful to the west, both as a partner and as a means of threatening Russia, turning it into an expensive and dangerous liability.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#365

Post by LarryMullins »

4ad wrote: post #271
Waterluvian wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost me at cars. Cars used to be horrible. They’ve never been better.

Cars have never been more reliable and safer, however "better" is a woefully underspecified and subjective thing. Things I don't like about modern cars: they all look the same, crappy capacitive controls and touchscreens inside the car, constant tracking mandated by law, much harder to work on the car if you are a car enthusiast. To me, a classic car from the 80s, or even early 90s is a far nicer vehicle to be in and…

Modern cars are safer in a crash and much more efficient. However the experience of sitting inside one, the everyday experience of using one is worse in nearly every single respect except for how much you pay at the gas station. And crash safety is the sort of advantage you hope to never experience.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#366

Post by agumonkey »

ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

What gets me is how pivotal information is. Back in the days your reality was defined by a few, and as a social species.. we follow suit. Today it's not.. China tries to censor reality but even they fail to an extent.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#367

Post by agumonkey »

shagie wrote: post #116
ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

There's a YouTube channel of a Cuban immigrant visiting some American commercial institutions for the first time... Supermarket - https://youtu.be/aBA41QgIty8 Costco - https://youtu.be/UhzQCeKlFDo Texas Roadhouse - https://youtu.be/xRtitCJv4cc Home Depot - https://youtu.be/TLsscvpsH8E

There's also the reverse. Cuba is a strange place to see.. with shops selling 10 items total (spread on a wall), when they can afford to open. The pace of economy dictates life, it's so weird when it's so slow.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#368

Post by aeternum »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #363
aeternum wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Putin is not a good leader for Russia, he's power-hungry and does not seem to have the best interests of the Russian people in mind. However by those same metrics you should consider US leadership as also being a weak evildoer. Is it good or evil to push other countries into war knowing that thousands will die? Is it good or evil to profit off the resulting energy crisis? Is it even smart to risk a global nucle…

The US did not push Russia into this war . Putin chose this war. All your moralizing is completely missing the point, because you are assigning cause to the wrong agents.

The US absolutely had a hand in this and not just NATO expansion.

We interfered with Ukraine elections: https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

Dan Carlin has a great 'Poking the Bear' episode that goes into detail on the many ways in which the US provoked Russia/Putin. Of course Putin was the primary cause of the war but it is foolish to believe that the US is blameless.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#369

Post by mindslight »

pydry wrote: post #364
mindslight wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, geography matters when your country has so little development that retreating to the mountains is a successful strategy. But that doesn't really say much about a developed country that would suffer significant losses by retreating to natural cover. > This is the most absurd excuse for American imperialism I think I've ever heard. I'm not excusing American imperialism. I am against American imperialism - note ho…

>Sure, geography matters It more than matters. It dictates the very shape of humanity. >But that doesn't really say much about a developed country It matters as much to developed countries as it does to non developed. Switzerland didn't get wealthy by being easy to invade. >However I am against Russian imperialism as well, and this situation is rooted in Russian imperialism. Realistically treating Russian defense con…

> Switzerland didn't get wealthy by being easy to invade.

Yeah, back before modern missiles, satellites, fighter jets, and drones. Back when the physical storage of gold was economically significant. Back before technological infrastructure started creating outsized productivity. In the modern day, what actually creates and protects Switzerland's way of life is their economic and political connections to their neighbors.

> We can be aggressive imperialists

Repeat after me: Ukraine wanting to join the US economic empire is not aggression. Ukraine wanting to join NATO to protect themselves from Russia is not aggression. Now write it on the blackboard 100 times.

> if you threaten the bear it will still claw your eyes out

More like when the bear occasionally comes out of the woods and wanders into yards, it will be tolerated. When the bear starts routinely posing a danger to humans, the bear will be shot.

> Destroying western Ukraine ("demilitarising") as a viable functioning state also renders it much less useful to the west

I agree this has become their open goal. Russia failed at stealing it, so they'll try to destroy it and kill everyone living there. Ultimately the more Russia destroys, the larger Ukraine's IMF loans and other foreign indebtedness will be. That indeed disgusts me, but not as much as genocide.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#370

Post by refurb »

UncleSlacky wrote: post #353
refurb wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideas are useless if they can’t be implemented.

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?"

Numerous countries have tried and failed.

We gave it a go, it doesn’t work.

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