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The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

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Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#41

Post by potatolicious »

shazow wrote: post #35
mdkess wrote: post #16

The tragic thing is that software companies in Waterloo don't pay that well. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. are offering new college grads around $100k salary, while companies such as RIM and OpenText in the Waterloo region pay maybe $60k, so all of the talent in the region leaves. Having gone through Waterloo's co-op program, I found that Canadian software companies tend to be very management heavy, which…

The salary is scaled to the cost of living. Even Google doesn't pay the same if you're working in Mountain View or Waterloo or Australia. $100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View. (Disclaimer: From personal experience, don't have a citation on the exact ratio.) I suspect people leave to Silicon Valley for the opportunities, tech culture, and weather…

Your point is valid in theory, but having spent the last 3 years in the US and keeping in a keen eye on the market continent-wide, it just doesn't bear out in reality.

I started off after graduation in Seattle, where the living costs are downright identical to what you would find in Vancouver or Toronto - except I was making $100K+ total comp. Compare this with the $50-55K offers I was getting from Canadian companies, and it was a complete no-brainer.

The gap has only widened - I'm now in SF making over double what my going rate in Canada would be. The cost of living is higher (well, mostly just the rent, everything else is similar), but it doesn't even come close to canceling out the raw pay difference.

But sometimes the pay is a red herring - I know a lot of Canadian expats in the USA who would love to go home, and many are willing to take substantial pay cuts in exchange for Canadian QOL, including myself. In fact, some of us have actually investigated this option thoroughly, and the ugly truth is:

There just aren't that many interesting, challenging jobs for programmers in Canada. It's a country full of code sweatshops and satellite-office monkey labs. Interesting, fulfilling, high-impact jobs are few and far between, and incredibly hotly contested where you do see them. Compare with being in SF, where someone practically begs me to go work on their interesting, world-changing problem every week. So in order for me to go back to Canada, I'd not only have to take a >50% pay cut, but also resign myself to ye olde cubicle and TPS reports. Entirely unacceptable.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#42

Post by reso »

wavephorm wrote: post #33
karamdeep wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ridiculous statement. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of challenges that entrepreneurs encounter when starting or scaling a business here, but it's time to stop using the crutch of VC/Government/Telecom interference to support the assertion that Canada is "an absolutely horrible place to do a technology start up. The bottom line is that if you still think this is the case, you haven't been paying attention…

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital…

Canadian VCs suck, no question. That's why most good Canadian start-ups have investors from the valley.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#43

Post by nobodysbusiness »

wonderercat wrote: post #5
reso wrote: post #2

In my opinion, the engine of Waterloo's success is the university's unique co-op program. UW operates on a four-month rotating co-op system, each student does four months of school, then four months of internships, repeat for the duration of their degree. Many of us land in the Valley, or NY, or London, and bring what we learn back here. Most of my friends have multiple google/facebook/valley start-up internships on…

As a UW alumnus doing a full-time startup a few blocks from UW, I actually don't see much of this "vibrant start-up scene" happening. This is entirely my fault, which leads me to the question I've been wondering about for a while now: Where in town would I go to get hooked in ? VeloCity has always been on my radar, but their site is terribly uninformative and doesn't give much of a place to start. I hang around the u…

Come visit DevHouse for some informal tech discussions and presentations: http://groups.google.com/group/waterloo-dev-house

(Originally founded by the PostRank people that have now been acquired by Google and have thus moved to California)

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#44

Post by jbarham »

shazow wrote: post #35
mdkess wrote: post #16

The tragic thing is that software companies in Waterloo don't pay that well. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. are offering new college grads around $100k salary, while companies such as RIM and OpenText in the Waterloo region pay maybe $60k, so all of the talent in the region leaves. Having gone through Waterloo's co-op program, I found that Canadian software companies tend to be very management heavy, which…

The salary is scaled to the cost of living. Even Google doesn't pay the same if you're working in Mountain View or Waterloo or Australia. $100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View. (Disclaimer: From personal experience, don't have a citation on the exact ratio.) I suspect people leave to Silicon Valley for the opportunities, tech culture, and weather…

> $100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View.

Um, no. Even though SV is a high-cost location in a (relative to the U.S.) high-tax state, personal income taxes are still substantially higher in Canada. Housing might be somewhat more in Waterloo than in SV, but the net take home at the end of the year would still be higher.

Assuming you're married and can file a joint tax return w/ your spouse, the U.S. tax advantage goes up even more.

There is no question that if you want to make a lot of money in tech, the U.S. is still the place to be. I say this as someone who has lived and worked in Canada, Southern Californian and now Australia.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#45

Post by wavephorm »

karamdeep wrote: post #40
wavephorm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital…

One bad experience should not tarnish an entire national ecosystem. There are incubators like GrowLabs and FoundersFuel who offer terms that are on par or better than YC, and there are investment firms that have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Canadian startups over the past few years, and SR&ED claims seem to function smoothly for all our portfolio companies. I obviously don't know the details of your…

Well that's nice for them, but for me I’ve received a much warmer welcome from Silicon Valley, including first class flights, an office, and funding for several years of development.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#46

Post by karamdeep »

reso wrote: post #42
wavephorm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital…

Canadian VCs suck, no question. That's why most good Canadian start-ups have investors from the valley.

Most Canadian start-ups that have investors from the Valley also have investors from Canada.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#47

Post by wwhchung »

sabraham wrote: post #39
wwhchung wrote: post #28

As a former Waterloo co-op (and founder of a YC company), I'd have to say that the 4 month co-op program added a LOT of value. I learned more in each of those 4 month co-op terms than each of my school terms. Additionally, from all my interviewing experience (i.e. interviewing for full time hire's), those that come from a co-op program (any co-op program, even UofT's) are way better prepared and have much more practi…

have a link for the event?

Yup: http://www.athinkingape.com/events/

Hope to see some of you there.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#48

Post by wwhchung »

wavephorm wrote: post #23

But there's no venture capital in Canada so it's nearly impossible to build a large tech company. Most successful Canadian startups sell out early because they know they'll hit major roadblocks. No capital plus a monopolistic telecom industry backed by government makes for a particularly hostile environment for small companies. Example: Kik got sued by Research in Motion IMMEDIATELY after receiving venture funding. T…

Hi there. While I agree with some of your points, i.e. issues with certain large companies being anti-competitive in the startup environment rather than being supportive, and the fact that the tax incentives offered could be better structured to be more accessible to technology startups, I still think Canada is a great place to build a company. Why? Well:

1. Canada does have great tech talent. Finding them is a bit more difficult, but talent retention is much better. And if you reward your employees well (i.e. competitively with any other company out there), you can attract world class talent.

2. Building a great company does not necessarily mean raising a huge VC round. In fact, if you can build a business that is growing quickly without the need for VC, they'll come looking for you. One thing that some people get hung up on is that you absolutely need to get funded to start a company. That's not true at all. Although, when the time does come to raise money, most US investors are actually comfortable with investing in Canadian companies.

There are a few things I do notice though. Canadian culture is a bit more conservative (i.e. less willing to take big risks, which also explains a bit of the lower valuation). It makes a bit of sense, since most of the larger industries are around 'traditional' sectors, like natural resources and finance. But this is changing. And as more and more successful tech companies emerge, the startup community will only get stronger.

Also, the tax incentives are well intentioned, however the way they're structure has been a 'one size fits all' approach. The rules put in place make sense for some industries (e.g. medical R&D), but make it a bit inaccessible to tech startups without a lot of effort.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#49

Post by mdkess »

shazow wrote: post #31
_napw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before graduating from Waterloo, I had the opportunity to work in three different countries (Canada, USA, Japan), on everything from web services to embedded C. While I was a good student, and I doubt that I would have had any trouble finding a job with or without co-op, getting the breadth of experience was incredibly valuable - this would be something much harder to get after graduating. I generally dislike competi…

Alright, I am convinced that Waterloo students get more joy out of doing four four-month jobs than Toronto students get out of doing one eighteen-month job. What I'm not convinced of is the resulting value-add to the student's career. The way I see it, the best things you can do to your career, in order of bestness: 1. Graduate as quickly as possible while freelancing summers, get the best job you can, quit after 18…

To be clear, unless they've changed it recently it is six four month co-op terms, not four. Also to be clear, students do frequently spend two co-op terms at the same company.

If you're really ambitious, nothing will hold back your career. An ambitious person will use co-op for exactly #1 and #2. A lot of (or at least many) people spend their six terms at six different start ups in NY, SF and other technology hubs, and meet a ton of people. The nice thing about being a student is that everyone just wants to help you, and you get a heck of a lot of business cards.

The reality is that there also a lot of people who are smart and get things done, but don't necessarily have the motivation or are too risk adverse to really reach out there and try things. Or some people still have a sense of loyalty, and once they've accepted a job they don't want to jump around every 18 months. Or after they graduate they are ready to start a family. The beauty of co-op is that it lets smart people experience a lot without needing that career ambition, and it exposes a lot of people to things that they would otherwise not get the opportunity to experience. This also inspires entrepreneurship, as people can tour software companies (and not software companies!) and really see what culture is like, what they like, what they don't.

Internships are great too, but the risk of an internship is that you end up with a bad placement. I had a friend who got a job as a tester (they lacked the self confidence and interview skills for something more), and that shattered them - they went from timid yet smart computer scientist to burned out in the 18 months (I am sure that there are people with great internships too). With co-op, there are bad placements, but you get many chances to get it right.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#50

Post by wwhchung »

potatolicious wrote: post #41
shazow wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salary is scaled to the cost of living. Even Google doesn't pay the same if you're working in Mountain View or Waterloo or Australia. $100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View. (Disclaimer: From personal experience, don't have a citation on the exact ratio.) I suspect people leave to Silicon Valley for the opportunities, tech culture, and weather…

Your point is valid in theory, but having spent the last 3 years in the US and keeping in a keen eye on the market continent-wide, it just doesn't bear out in reality. I started off after graduation in Seattle, where the living costs are downright identical to what you would find in Vancouver or Toronto - except I was making $100K+ total comp. Compare this with the $50-55K offers I was getting from Canadian companies…

We're a tech startup in Vancouver. If you're interested in coming back to Canada, please look us up. We've build up our company to be very much like what you can find in the US (i.e. ownership, high quality of talent, cool things to work on). We're always actively hiring, and we compensate very fairly, since we know we're looking for the best hackers in the world. :)

Ya, I know this sounds like a pitch, but if anyone in the US is thinking of moving back to Canada, please contact us. We've written about our reasons for opening up our primary dev shop up here, and one of them was specifically for the really great devs that wanted a cool place to work in Canada.

Our website is www.athinkingape.com It might look like a social games development shop, but it's actually much more. ;)

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