Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#331

Post by cat_plus_plus » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 3:28 PM UTC

yourapostasy wrote: post #317

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #199

Gorbachev's take was "let's think it through and hear all opinions and then decide what should be done about long term future of USSR". Yelsin dropped "let's think it through". Although privatisation of state enterprise by distributing vouchers to all citizens has merit on paper, one must ensure that population is educated about realistic ups and downs of stocks and is given some basic security to make long term rati…

> West should have bailed our Russia through some equivalent of Marshall plan... Definitely should have. However, it would have fell into the lap of the US to give the lion’s share and I remain unpersuaded the US had at that time the economic strength to pull that off without putting itself into an existentially compromising posture. Politically I doubt the Russian Federation would have consented to the kind of terms…

US in early 90s way WAY healthier than US today, on the verge of dot com boom, and aid we would have provided would not be 100% loss like military aid to Ukraine today. What was needed is to give some kind of alternative work to employees of state enterprises, who were willing to work for very little money and had some skills. We ended up doing the same for China, only without any strategic goals and time limits. As a result, mid America now just about needs a Marshall plan itself to prevent political instability.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#332

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #199

Gorbachev's take was "let's think it through and hear all opinions and then decide what should be done about long term future of USSR". Yelsin dropped "let's think it through". Although privatisation of state enterprise by distributing vouchers to all citizens has merit on paper, one must ensure that population is educated about realistic ups and downs of stocks and is given some basic security to make long term rati…

> West should have bailed our Russia through some equivalent of Marshall plan to avoid present day situation.

The West gave multiple large rounds of aid in the early 1990s, but that seemed to slow down with the first Chechen war.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#333

Post by D_Alex » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 3:58 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #329

D_Alex wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Growing from a bad start and where you can copy a more developed nation makes this easier. True. But you know what really makes economic growth easier? Foreign aid. Also trade. The USSR otoh had to deal with sanctions . https://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Embargoes-and-S...

Yet they weren't alone in the world. They were next to China and other friendlies.

China was friendly with the USSR only briefly, like in the 1950s. It was desperately poor at the time, and received a lot of aid from the USSR.

I don't know what other friendlies you mean. USSR installed communist/socialist governments in the countries it liberated from German occupation after WW2, but those relationships were... complicated.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#334

Post by FatActor » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

As a U.S.-er, this is how I feel when I see Europe with their health care.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#335

Post by mopsi » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #320

actinium226 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to protect the people of Donbas, Russia fires missiles at Kiev, Kherson, Odessa, Lvov? To protect those people it launches an invasion and calls on the Ukrainian army to overthrow its government? To protect those people it annexes Kherson? To protect those people it tries to decimate the energy infrastructure of Ukraine so that people will freeze in the winter and beg their government to stop fighting? Do you hone…

> So to protect the people of Donbas, Russia fires missiles at Kiev, Kherson, Odessa, Lvov? > To protect those people it tries to decimate the energy infrastructure of Ukraine so that people will freeze in the winter and beg their government to stop fighting? This is the brutality of war — and why Russia tried to make the Minsk agreements work. > Do you honestly believe that Putin actually has the best interests of t…

> Yes — I believe that a substantial reason for this is what happened in Donbas. Russians are angry at Putin for being weak and allowing this violence against ethnic Russians.

There was no violence to speak of. In all of 2021, only 25 civilians died, lowest annual figure since the war in Ukraine began in 2014. These deaths were mainly due to land mines in regions illegally occupied by Russia. To build support for the new invasion, Russian state media has blown these deaths out of proportion for years, depicting the situation as if people were living under constant artillery attacks and hiding in basements year after year.

> What specifically should Russia have done when a decade of diplomacy failed?

Cut funding and arming of the so-called "separatists" and remove Russian tanks, guns and military personnel from Ukraine. Politically, if they want a stable neighbour with exemplary human rights record, then they should encourage the integration of Ukraine into NATO, OECD and the EU. All countries in the region that have integrated with western organizations have seen dramatic improvements in all areas of human development.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#336

Post by kragen » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #222

kragen wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

certainly in a marxist analysis wage-laboring banana pickers are being exploited because they're alienated from the fruits of their labor (which are in this case literal fruits) nevertheless, 01992 was a long time after democracy was restored in honduras in 01981 and the civil war began in guatemala in 01960, and bananas are still cheap today, including here in argentina, so evidently cheap bananas don't require the…

Banana republics are exploitative in literally every definition of exploitation, because there was literal military violence involved. And even nowadays, Marxist analysis is far from the only framework in which workers in the global south are exploited. In fact almost any theory of exploitation except for the most radical libertarian/neoliberal would see an element of exploitation. It turns out that since 1980 there…

you are reasoning from the implied functionalist premise that forms of domination exist because they are necessary

this is a false premise

forms of domination exist not because they are necessary but because they are achievable—because those who support them are better organized and resourced than those who oppose them

those of us here in the 'global south' are generally not a fan of the term, lumping together as it does botswana, myanmar, the philippines, and argentina under a single rubric; it reflects a cartoonishly shallow analysis of the real social relations in the world system

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#337

Post by actinium226 » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:27 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #320

actinium226 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to protect the people of Donbas, Russia fires missiles at Kiev, Kherson, Odessa, Lvov? To protect those people it launches an invasion and calls on the Ukrainian army to overthrow its government? To protect those people it annexes Kherson? To protect those people it tries to decimate the energy infrastructure of Ukraine so that people will freeze in the winter and beg their government to stop fighting? Do you hone…

> So to protect the people of Donbas, Russia fires missiles at Kiev, Kherson, Odessa, Lvov? > To protect those people it tries to decimate the energy infrastructure of Ukraine so that people will freeze in the winter and beg their government to stop fighting? This is the brutality of war — and why Russia tried to make the Minsk agreements work. > Do you honestly believe that Putin actually has the best interests of t…

> This is the brutality of war

You're 100% wrong here. This is not the brutality of war but the brutality of Russia. If the main goal is to protect the ethnic Russians of Donbas, why fire missiles at Lvov? Why try to send tanks into Kiev? Why capture Kherson? You know why? Because protecting Donbas is not the goal! It was a paper-thin excuse for some non-sense power politics and territorial expansion.

I already answered what Russia should have done. Russia claims "diplomacy has failed" and it's so paper thin. Even the US went before the UN in the case of Iraq. Russia did not go to the UN in this case. Their news programs (which I watch) will tell you they did, and their ambassador probably put forth some slapdash resolution, but did they take it seriously? No. Did they raise legitimate concerns and act like a partner interested in resolving a problem, as opposed to someone looking to escalate a problem into an excuse? No. They accuse Zelensky of being a drug-addicted fascist. Have you seen him? Have you seen Putin? Did you not see the anger and hatred in Putin's face on Feb 24? I did. I was shocked by it. I'd never seen his face so contorted. And this wasn't some propaganda show that took a clip out of context, I watched his whole speech on Russia's channel one.

I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point. Don't you have better things to do? I do, and I'm going to go see to them. Good day, sir.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#338

Post by contingencies » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC

cfn wrote: post #225

Back in 1989 I, by chance, took a Russian univeristy professor that was visiting Portugal to the largest supermarket in Lisbon. As far as I rememmber, we had to buy some food to take home and cook her a meal and the supermarket was in the way. As we waited in line to pay she asked us if she could go for another walk by herself. She said that the supermarket was like a cathedral to her. That was when it dawned on me,…

The modern Chinese relationship to foreign retail distribution operations such as Germany's Metro, France's Carrefour, the US's Walmart and Sam's Club and even Swedish IKEA could also be framed in this light.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#339

Post by robswc » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

jvnnmfjvfjvflkj wrote: post #300

robswc wrote: post #121

I have some extended family from Eastern European countries. It's just so unfortunate what happened. The road to hell, paved with good intentions. They're normal people stuck picking up the pieces of a failed regime. Even with some things being adjusted, it might take weeks to comfortably afford what a typical SDE could afford in an hour here. No idea how people in the west romanticize it or say it was a good thing.…

They say this about Cubans in Miami too.

Yep. Blows my mind. I feel like many people just forget the difference between real life and internet sometimes.

We're talking about people that risked their lives to escape a system. Not your political opponents on twitter.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#340

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

jhoechtl wrote: post #212

pavlov wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now the challenge for us is that we’re still stuck thinking stores full of Chinese junk is the pinnacle of civilization and we’re unable to know any better despite accumulating evidence of planetary destruction.

But where lies the middle ground? Soviets having one sort of butter vs. 20 sorts of butter (yoghurt, drills, ...) many of which were produced abroad? Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney?

> Maybe we can correct (economic) future by simply insourcing some goods and therefore work and forget about the knowledge society boloney?

WE do insource some goods – where we have comparative advantage, or where the cost of trade negates the benefits of trading with someone who produces it at lower opportunity cost. Insourcing beyond that draws the production possibilities curve inward, making us (and our trade partners) poorer.

Generally, this is a losing deal. It is possible that there are incidental distributional advantages, so that it makes us poorer in aggregate but distributes returns in a way which reduces harms from the current distribution. But that’s not obviously generally the case, and in any case without clear and overwhelming evidence that this would be the effect I’d rather just attack distribution from a position of greater aggregate prosperity than start lopping off prosperity and hoping better distribution came out of it.