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Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

knowablemagazine.org

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Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#321

Post by coder543 »

jonplackett wrote: post #312

> Lord Kelvin proposed using heat pump systems for space heating way back in 1852. The first heat pump was designed and built a few years later That’s the kind of speed we need if this is going to be any help before everything’s on fire anyway. From what I can tell (in / for the UK at least) heat pumps currently aren’t that great - my dad’s boiler just died and every plumber he spoke to said heat pumps kinda suck and…

If the only research you did is secondhand word of mouth, I think you need to do a little more research.

Heat pumps are extremely excellent, and have been for years. We've even reached the point where heat pumps are able to work effectively in places like North Dakota. For reference, the UK doesn't even have the concept of weather like that.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#322

Post by acdha »

timbit42 wrote: post #313
macinjosh wrote: post #27

Half way through the article the author is touting how these can work in cold climates like Norway, then their example homeowner immediately states they have this but also they still have a furnace for when it actually is cold. Why do journalists try to pull crap like this? Contradictory information in the same paragraph!? If you have to have a backup it is _not_ a replacement and it will not get us off of carbon. Mo…

It's not that black or white. I only need a backup for my heat pumps for perhaps a week each winter. The heat pump still saves me 40% on my heating costs throughout the year. Also, Norway doesn't get as cold as you might think. They get some heat from the gulf stream in the Atlantic ocean like the UK does. Russia and Canada get a lot colder in their northern parts, like -40C quite often and sometimes even as low as -…

I’ve been wondering where the break-even points will be for ground source systems, too. I was talking with an architect a couple weeks ago who has looked into that for several projects and didn’t find the number close to working out, but that was in Boston where the winter climate is nowhere near that extreme and the labor/land costs are very high and space issues meant they’d have to do the most expensive vertical boreholes.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#323

Post by fifteenforty »

hawaiianbrah wrote: post #307
IAmGraydon wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking why the Daikin Alira X is more expensive in the US? It's because it's not a brand that is normally found here. If you went with a common US brand you can get a good system with 4 units and a 36,000 BTU heat pump unit for around $6,500 USD installed. I don't love the wall units - they're pretty ugly, even the new ones. If you're getting a mini-split, the in-ceiling or wall cassettes that are hidden are…

Wow, really? Prices seem much higher than that in Seattle. A friend got 3 handlers totaling 24k BTU for like 12 grand.

That’s double the price I paid here!

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#324

Post by operatingthetan »

thehappypm wrote: post #228
Brybry wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the hardware is that expensive in the US, it's the installation (which costs more than the hardware). And mistakes by installers will cost even more. Our installers didn't flare a line set connection properly and it leaked slowly and that was a very expensive bill (especially since refrigerants have changed so much). Our Daikin indoor units have also had condensate leaking issues, probably due to poor i…

Daikon is way worse than Mitsubishi from what my hvac guy tells me

Dealer salespeople are loyal to their brands and shit talk the other brands, so I'd take that with a grain of salt. I own both brands, they are basically the same.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#325

Post by usrusr »

crznp wrote: post #219
retrac wrote: post #2

> heat pumps: electrical devices Just to be pedantic, but not exactly. The typical design in a domestic heating unit, or refrigerator is mechanical. A fluid is pumped and cyclically compressed/expanded. While electric motors are usually used, they can be driven by any source of mechanical energy; driven directly by a combustion engine is not too unusual. There are also heat pump cycles that can be driven directly wit…

As you said: a Peltier heat pump is a purely electrical device, so if you're using a broader definition of the term, it could be a variety of different types of devices. But that is the introductory paragraph, the author is defining what they mean by "heat pump": a device for heating a house which is powered by electricity. You could power it with something else, but the point is to replace natural gas furnaces.

My mind parses the term "heat pump" as a device that works on temperature by compressing some medium. Works out just fine for most heat pumps, but not at all for e.g. the Peltier element which is about moving heat from one side to the oher ("pump") but does not involve compression at all.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#326

Post by 1123581321 »

cbrozefsky wrote: post #242
1123581321 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about the disposition of the local HVAC companies and tradespeople there. Do you feel confident that you could get emergency service in cold weather? I like this technology a lot, but I live in an area where I can't get most companies to take my request for a quote seriously if it's not a standard central air, furnace or water heater. I had to DIY my Rheem heat pump water heater in 2021 because I couldn't…

All the ones we know of are doing mini splits and heat pump hot water, and we had no problem getting quotes and even recommendations.

That’s great to hear. I’ll be doing another search for quotes this year and am hoping for change.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#327

Post by sidewndr46 »

elil17 wrote: post #79
ghettoCoder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always joke that in winter all appliances are 100% efficient (I know they're not). Some look at me funny but the ones who pay the gas bill get usually get it.

If you have a resistance electric furnace, that is essentially true. With gas, you add the electric generation and distribution losses, which is a pretty big difference. It does cost more to run an appliance than to heat with gas.

But if we're going with the "heatpumps are more than 100% efficient" that everyone brings out, then running my computer to work & heat my room is far above 200% efficiency.

If I'm running my computer to use it & it keeps me warm, there is no way turning on a natural gas heater is going to reduce my costs.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#328

Post by sidewndr46 »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #122
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas boilers produce NO2, and other nasties - they do affect air quality in your house

How do they affect the air quality indoors? Don't modern (less than fifty years old) gas boilers have balanced flues so that they take in air from the outside and exhaust the combustion products outside too? Surely properly installed gas boilers always did that even without balanced flues too.

At least where I live in the US if you want a ventless natural gas heater you can just go buy one. It's not something I'd recommend.

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#329

Post by sidewndr46 »

elil17 wrote: post #169
maxk42 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So can heat. That's not the appliance's fault.

It's not about fault at all - I'm just saying that the analysis does not apply to lightbulbs. For a lightbulb to be as efficient as a resistance furnace at heating a room, you would need to have zero light escape that room so that all the light would be converted to heat. Then, the heat would leave the room at the same rate as heat generated by a resistance furnace. Even if we consider incandescent light bulbs, which…

You do realize that burning natural gas for heat produces light as well right?

Re: Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future

#330

Post by sidewndr46 »

landemva wrote: post #84
ComputerGuru wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've built/retrofitted and a prototype of mechanically operated louvres with push/pull fans for air exchange in an old school building, tied to the thermostat, ac, and a CO2 detector. The idea of doing the same in my home has been taunting me for years now. Ideally you'd have two such louvres, one with a push fan in the upper floor and the other with a pull fan in the lower floor to simultaneously eject unwanted heat…

Whole house fans are often used in summer at dusk to rapidly cool house. Air is sucked through house into attic, which also cools the attic. https://www.thespruce.com/whole-house-fan-vs-attic-fan-diffe... Crack open a window downstairs before switching it on.

Those usually function as a giant hole in the house insulation when not in use.
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