Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#121

Post by robswc » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 1:46 AM UTC

I have some extended family from Eastern European countries. It's just so unfortunate what happened. The road to hell, paved with good intentions. They're normal people stuck picking up the pieces of a failed regime. Even with some things being adjusted, it might take weeks to comfortably afford what a typical SDE could afford in an hour here.

No idea how people in the west romanticize it or say it was a good thing. I've even seen hostility directed towards Eastern Europeans living in the west (almost exclusively from radical college kids) joking about how they got what they deserved or anyone that ran from the USSR was a greedy business person and that the stories are made up.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#122

Post by nerdbert » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 1:46 AM UTC

seltzered_ wrote: post #4

Worth noting this footage of a ussr grocery store (1990/91) : https://youtu.be/t8LtQhIQ2AE Not endorsing the article, I think it's worth thinking beyond just the economic frame and also factoring in community resilience and such. There's arguments such as from writers like Orlov: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Orlov_(writer)

7:37 I would like to know how bad that meat smelled to get her to make that noise.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#123

Post by freeone3000 » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

nerdbert wrote: post #117

thefounder wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one year long invadion should give you a hint. Detaining people for calling it war instead of "special operation" is another one. Calling other neighbours "fake/artificial" countries is another bad sign that Russia's intentions are not good.

People were not detained in the USA for using the wrong nomenclature to describe the Iraq invasion, and yet that was also an unspeakably cruel, venal war of cynical aggression knowingly perpetrated on laughably false pretenses. To this day roughly half of Americans think it was the right move - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/19/iraq-war-co... So I don't think factors like that are so good at separating…

Maybe the invasion of Iraq was also bad!

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#124

Post by PheonixPharts » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

avgcorrection wrote: post #58

ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

> Then he saw the bananas. He really wanted bananas. He wouldn't ask for bananas. So I grabbed a bunch and put them in the basket. And then I told Andrei and Volodya about Banana Republics.

I’m always a bit surprised that Soviet era Capitalist propaganda remains so effective to this day.

Of course Capitalism looks fantastic from the exploiters’ perspective.

Today more than ever it should be clear that the opulence of America in the 90s is completely unsustainable on a global scale.

That way of live has always been reserved for a global minority, one many of us may find ourselves excluded from in our lifetimes.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#125

Post by mlyle » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 1:51 AM UTC

nerdbert wrote: post #117

thefounder wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one year long invadion should give you a hint. Detaining people for calling it war instead of "special operation" is another one. Calling other neighbours "fake/artificial" countries is another bad sign that Russia's intentions are not good.

People were not detained in the USA for using the wrong nomenclature to describe the Iraq invasion, and yet that was also an unspeakably cruel, venal war of cynical aggression knowingly perpetrated on laughably false pretenses. To this day roughly half of Americans think it was the right move - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/19/iraq-war-co... So I don't think factors like that are so good at separating…

The thing is, there's vanishingly few "good invasions".

Even fewer when you're intent on annexing territory and capturing resources and large numbers of people.

The logic error you've committed above: Stifling dissent about the war with authoritarian measures may not be a necessary condition for an invasion to be bad, but it still can be a hint that the invasion is bad.

Rejecting the territorial integrity of the country invaded, similarly, can be a pretty good hint.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#126

Post by int_19h » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:01 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #13

seltzered_ wrote: post #4

Worth noting this footage of a ussr grocery store (1990/91) : https://youtu.be/t8LtQhIQ2AE Not endorsing the article, I think it's worth thinking beyond just the economic frame and also factoring in community resilience and such. There's arguments such as from writers like Orlov: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Orlov_(writer)

> this footage of a ussr grocery store At least they were spacious! And the small trolleys were kind: you didn't have to feel bad that yours was empty. Even developing contries' markets usually are groaning with produce. What a condemnation of the communist experiement!

Farmer markets were a separate thing, and that's where you'd find fresh produce (and quality meat), if you could afford it. Looked something like this in late 80s:

https://imgur.com/a/DAepLEJ

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#127

Post by actinium226 » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #109

actinium226 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandfather was born in St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) and lived there as a child through the Nazi siege. In the 40's and 50's in the USSR he and his friends saw through the propaganda and knew that things in the US were much better. But you know what's strange? He lives in NJ now, he's been there for the last 25 years. He watches Russian state TV and also CNN and thinks he gets both perspectives. When Russia inv…

What has you convinced you’re not falling for propaganda on Ukraine — that it’s him who is wrong?

Not sure if this is a troll or a bot but I'll take the question seriously and answer it seriously. After all, this did occur to me at the time.

What convinced me that I'm not falling for Western propaganda? What it came down to was the following argument, and it has to be an argument and not a soundbite because in order to get beneath the propaganda we have to go deep.

- Many of Russia's claims against Ukraine are either true or have real elements of truth to them. Yes the founder of Azov is an avowed nationalist*. Yes, there have been laws passed in Ukraine that required greater use of Ukrainian language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine#201.... Yes, the parliament of Ukraine considered giving Hero status to Stepan Bandera, who is a controversial figure because (among other things) he did work with the Nazis in WWII. Yes, there was fighting in Donbas, and while I don't know about Ukraine intentionally shelling civilians, I can imagine that at least there were civilians killed as a result of Ukrainian fire in that area since 2014.

- None of these arguments rise to the level of necessitating military intervention.

- Russia did not take steps to de-escalate the conflict. There were so many things Russia could have done if it was genuinely interested in peace and friendly relations with a sovereign Ukraine. If you're worried about persecution of Russians in Ukraine, make it easy for them to get to Russia. If you're concerned about fighting, use your status as a UNSC member to call for a peacekeeping mission. Russia did none of these things.

I could go on, but the main argument is that when you look past the emotionally charged arguments, the substance and the necessity of military action just aren't there. Bandera's quite a character, but put his history aside for a moment and ask yourself what's his relevance to the current conflict: Yushchenko awarded him hero status in 2010. Yanukovich cancelled this a couple months later. In 2019 Ukraine's parliament took up the issue and decided against giving him an award. And Russia wants to send in soldiers for that? Because they considered him for an award and rejected the idea?

* He (Andriy Biletsky) is quoted as having said something about "lead the white races .. against Semite-led untermenschen" but the Guardian article that makes the claim provides no citation.*

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#128

Post by adolph » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

PheonixPharts wrote: post #124

avgcorrection wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then he saw the bananas. He really wanted bananas. He wouldn't ask for bananas. So I grabbed a bunch and put them in the basket. And then I told Andrei and Volodya about Banana Republics.

I’m always a bit surprised that Soviet era Capitalist propaganda remains so effective to this day. Of course Capitalism looks fantastic from the exploiters’ perspective. Today more than ever it should be clear that the opulence of America in the 90s is completely unsustainable on a global scale. That way of live has always been reserved for a global minority, one many of us may find ourselves excluded from in our lif…

> Today more than ever it should be clear that the opulence of America in the 90s is completely unsustainable on a global scale.

It isn't clear at all. The material conditions of the 90s has and will be surpassed at higher efficiency using smaller energy budgets.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#129

Post by refurb » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

PheonixPharts wrote: post #124

avgcorrection wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then he saw the bananas. He really wanted bananas. He wouldn't ask for bananas. So I grabbed a bunch and put them in the basket. And then I told Andrei and Volodya about Banana Republics.

I’m always a bit surprised that Soviet era Capitalist propaganda remains so effective to this day. Of course Capitalism looks fantastic from the exploiters’ perspective. Today more than ever it should be clear that the opulence of America in the 90s is completely unsustainable on a global scale. That way of live has always been reserved for a global minority, one many of us may find ourselves excluded from in our lif…

Capitalism has been responsible for lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.

Communism, or any other system, can’t make that same claim.

Unless you have an alternative, your claims of exploration will fall on deaf ears.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#130

Post by wrp » Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #29

advisedwang wrote: post #11

It's naive to imagine Yeltsin's mind was really changed by a spontaneous visit. He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like? The premiere of a superpower just randomly decided to visit a grocery store? No. Yeltsin was contemplating reforms and changes and wanted to collect a political tool he could later user if needed. He knew exactly how this visit would go, and it was intended so he could use it…

>”He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like?” Take this all with a grain of salt because this is just what I remember from reading stories online of people who used to live in the USSR, but the average person realized the West had more material prosperity but they were under the impression the upper class folks were the only ones with real access to it. They believed the common worker still had to…

In the 1970s, one of my professors was assigned to be guide/translator for a group of visiting Soviet social scientists in Los Angeles. He asked them what they wanted to see and they insisted on a tour of Watts, so they could see the "real America" behind the Potemkin villages. So they all got into a schoolbus and went over to Watts. The Soviets wouldn't believe that they were really seeing Watts, because this neighborhood singled-out in Soviet propaganda as a pit of misery actually seemed to show a better quality of life than what they had at home. So, they insisted on getting off the bus to ask random people on the street what area they were really in.