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Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

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Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#101

Post by maxerickson »

lolinder wrote: post #94
rippercushions wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight from the horse's mouth: > In Yeltsin’s own autobiography, he wrote about the experience at Randall’s, which shattered his view of communism

That's not straight from the horse's mouth, you left off the attribution (emphasis added): > In Yeltsin’s own autobiography, he wrote about the experience at Randall’s, which shattered his view of communism, according to pundits. From that paragraph it sounds like "pundits" are the ones saying it shattered his view of communism, not the autobiography itself. (Edit: to be fair, that sentence is a really awkward attrib…

He wrote "When I saw those shelves crammed with hundreds, thousands of cans, cartons and goods of every possible sort, for the first time I felt quite frankly sick with despair for the Soviet people. That such a potentially super-rich country as ours has been brought to a state of such poverty! It is terrible to think of it."

Pundits aren't super far out over their skis.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6kh3dw/ive_h...

https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When...

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#102

Post by daniel_reetz »

ahartmetz wrote: post #79
suzzer99 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the average person realized the West had more material prosperity but they were under the impression the upper class folks were the only ones with real access to it This propaganda technique is called reverse cargo cult. They don't try to directly refute the facts on the ground. They just claim that clever people realize it's all an illusion. It's devastatingly effective. No one wants to be on the wrong side of…

Aka "everybody does it". People paid to go to pro-Putin demonstrations don't believe that people who go (maybe... used to go) to contra-Putin demonstrations were not paid. That's where I first heard about it.

Right, or like one fellow I know "It's the same anywhere you go". No, it's not.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#103

Post by XorNot »

boulos wrote: post #47
ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

> Then he saw the bananas. He really wanted bananas. He wouldn't ask for bananas. So I grabbed a bunch and put them in the basket. > "Are you rich?" No. I have a good student job. "Are your parents in government?" No. My dad's dead; Cassie's dad is a doctor in another state. "Anyone can shop here?" Absolutely. In multiple communist countries in Eastern Europe, bananas were special because they only came ~once a year…

My wife is Bulgarian and spent some of her childhood in the USSR before her parents managed to get out (via South Africa).

A very clear memory for her is her Grandfather waiting 6 hours in line to get a banana because she said she wanted one, when she was about 4 or 5.

It's so weird to see the same sentiments echoed, yet makes sense given the above.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#104

Post by nervlord »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #93
RyJones wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with a guy that had a similar experience escorting Russian people in Florida? Alabama? Somewhere in the south where we hid defectors until everything was straight. He was driving some guy around who thought it was a guided tour to Potemkin villages, so he pulled out a map and said pick a place. They drove to whatever that town was and he said, pick a store. After a couple of hours, I think his mind was blow…

There was a Russian group that made a stop at Cumberland Mall in suburban Atlanta. On that particular day, there was a shooting in the food court, so they got much more of the American experience than they expected. No one in their group was harmed but I'm sure it made an impression.

[dead]

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#105

Post by rhino369 »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #29
advisedwang wrote: post #11

It's naive to imagine Yeltsin's mind was really changed by a spontaneous visit. He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like? The premiere of a superpower just randomly decided to visit a grocery store? No. Yeltsin was contemplating reforms and changes and wanted to collect a political tool he could later user if needed. He knew exactly how this visit would go, and it was intended so he could use it…

>”He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like?” Take this all with a grain of salt because this is just what I remember from reading stories online of people who used to live in the USSR, but the average person realized the West had more material prosperity but they were under the impression the upper class folks were the only ones with real access to it. They believed the common worker still had to…

Their intelligence officers must have known. They lived here as diplomats and free access to just travel around. Maybe people like Yeltsin didn't believe them or the KGB was afraid to tell people, but they should have known.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#106

Post by [deleted] »

ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

[deleted]

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#107

Post by cm2187 »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #29
advisedwang wrote: post #11

It's naive to imagine Yeltsin's mind was really changed by a spontaneous visit. He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like? The premiere of a superpower just randomly decided to visit a grocery store? No. Yeltsin was contemplating reforms and changes and wanted to collect a political tool he could later user if needed. He knew exactly how this visit would go, and it was intended so he could use it…

>”He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like?” Take this all with a grain of salt because this is just what I remember from reading stories online of people who used to live in the USSR, but the average person realized the West had more material prosperity but they were under the impression the upper class folks were the only ones with real access to it. They believed the common worker still had to…

There is a soviet joke. Two workers in France discuss, one really wants to move to the soviet union, the paradise for workers, the land of plenty. The other is more hesitant, he also heard stories of famine and repression. All capitalist propaganda, says the first one, and I made up my mind, I am going. Well, says the other one, I might join you, but first you go, and you tell me how it is, and if it is what you say it is, I go too. But if it is what those capitalists say it is, you might not be free to write your mind so let's devise a code: if you can write freely, write in black ink, if you are coerced, use red ink, and I will know I shouldn't come.

A month later, he receives a letter, in black ink, saying "the soviet union is fantastic, workers are really cared for here, we have freedom, food, prosperity, everyone is happy. The only inconvenience is that I really cannot find any red ink anywhere".

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#108

Post by JumpinJack_Cash »

advisedwang wrote: post #11

It's naive to imagine Yeltsin's mind was really changed by a spontaneous visit. He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like? The premiere of a superpower just randomly decided to visit a grocery store? No. Yeltsin was contemplating reforms and changes and wanted to collect a political tool he could later user if needed. He knew exactly how this visit would go, and it was intended so he could use it…

You are seriously overrating world leaders.

They are just guys who happened to find themselves there

Maybe he did get the intelligence reports but he needed to go and see for himself in order to internalize them as opposed to just absentmindedly skim through them

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#109

Post by zmgsabst »

actinium226 wrote: post #92
e1g wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1989, I was a child growing up on the streets of a small town in Siberia. During those years, I believed everyone in America was prosperous - the 'common worker' didn't exist, and it was wealth all the way down. My family was not connected, and we were firmly middle class (in the "all animals are equal" way). The Soviet propaganda machine was compelling before my time, but by the 90s, common folks in the USSR were…

My grandfather was born in St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) and lived there as a child through the Nazi siege. In the 40's and 50's in the USSR he and his friends saw through the propaganda and knew that things in the US were much better. But you know what's strange? He lives in NJ now, he's been there for the last 25 years. He watches Russian state TV and also CNN and thinks he gets both perspectives. When Russia inv…

What has you convinced you’re not falling for propaganda on Ukraine — that it’s him who is wrong?

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#110

Post by thefounder »

actinium226 wrote: post #92
e1g wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1989, I was a child growing up on the streets of a small town in Siberia. During those years, I believed everyone in America was prosperous - the 'common worker' didn't exist, and it was wealth all the way down. My family was not connected, and we were firmly middle class (in the "all animals are equal" way). The Soviet propaganda machine was compelling before my time, but by the 90s, common folks in the USSR were…

My grandfather was born in St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) and lived there as a child through the Nazi siege. In the 40's and 50's in the USSR he and his friends saw through the propaganda and knew that things in the US were much better. But you know what's strange? He lives in NJ now, he's been there for the last 25 years. He watches Russian state TV and also CNN and thinks he gets both perspectives. When Russia inv…

Considering Iraq invasion and how it was "presented" at the time everything is possible but it's hard to me to understand how can someone trust an authoritan regime lead by someone like Putin. I think some people are just pissed off and try to find something against the system that treated them "unfairy"
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