Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

beelineblogger.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 378 posts

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#91

Post by tekla »

pydry wrote: post #41
tekla wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, since Post Civil War and Pre WW2 Soviet Union was an amazingly productive economy without multiple famines and definitely didn't shoot over a million of their own citizens without a good reason.

The growth was pretty staggering, yeah. They progressed from agrarian to first man in space in 40 years.

The growth was staggering because they stole grain and farmland from their citizens, exported it to buy machinery because the USSR couldn't manufacture themselves, which was also wasted since they didn't have the ability to keep the machines maintained properly.

So yeah, turns out you can do things if you starve your people to death. (See North Korea)

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#92

Post by actinium226 »

e1g wrote: post #40
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like?” Take this all with a grain of salt because this is just what I remember from reading stories online of people who used to live in the USSR, but the average person realized the West had more material prosperity but they were under the impression the upper class folks were the only ones with real access to it. They believed the common worker still had to…

In 1989, I was a child growing up on the streets of a small town in Siberia. During those years, I believed everyone in America was prosperous - the 'common worker' didn't exist, and it was wealth all the way down. My family was not connected, and we were firmly middle class (in the "all animals are equal" way). The Soviet propaganda machine was compelling before my time, but by the 90s, common folks in the USSR were…

My grandfather was born in St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) and lived there as a child through the Nazi siege. In the 40's and 50's in the USSR he and his friends saw through the propaganda and knew that things in the US were much better.

But you know what's strange? He lives in NJ now, he's been there for the last 25 years. He watches Russian state TV and also CNN and thinks he gets both perspectives. When Russia invaded Ukraine, he defended Russia, and spit out all the lines about the "nazi leadership" of Ukraine. "Bucha was faked," all that. I think he realized that he was in the minority and toned it down, but this definitely made an impression on me. It's not that certain people are immune to propaganda and some aren't. Anybody can fall into it.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#93

Post by Mountain_Skies »

RyJones wrote: post #60
ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

I grew up with a guy that had a similar experience escorting Russian people in Florida? Alabama? Somewhere in the south where we hid defectors until everything was straight. He was driving some guy around who thought it was a guided tour to Potemkin villages, so he pulled out a map and said pick a place. They drove to whatever that town was and he said, pick a store. After a couple of hours, I think his mind was blow…

There was a Russian group that made a stop at Cumberland Mall in suburban Atlanta. On that particular day, there was a shooting in the food court, so they got much more of the American experience than they expected. No one in their group was harmed but I'm sure it made an impression.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#94

Post by lolinder »

rippercushions wrote: post #74
alamortsubite wrote: post #12

This sounds apocryphal. I don't doubt Yeltsin was impressed by his visit to the supermarket, but by 1989 the writing was more than on the wall for the demise of the USSR. I imagine it'd be more accurate to say that Yeltsin was excited by the prospects of a transformed economy, seeing the prosperity of the U.S. firsthand, rather than his visit being any kind of tipping point in the Soviet Union's downfall. Anyway, Rob…

Straight from the horse's mouth: > In Yeltsin’s own autobiography, he wrote about the experience at Randall’s, which shattered his view of communism

That's not straight from the horse's mouth, you left off the attribution (emphasis added):

> In Yeltsin’s own autobiography, he wrote about the experience at Randall’s, which shattered his view of communism, according to pundits.

From that paragraph it sounds like "pundits" are the ones saying it shattered his view of communism, not the autobiography itself.

(Edit: to be fair, that sentence is a really awkward attribution sandwich, so I can see how it might have confused.)

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#95

Post by alamortsubite »

actinium226 wrote: post #88
alamortsubite wrote: post #12

This sounds apocryphal. I don't doubt Yeltsin was impressed by his visit to the supermarket, but by 1989 the writing was more than on the wall for the demise of the USSR. I imagine it'd be more accurate to say that Yeltsin was excited by the prospects of a transformed economy, seeing the prosperity of the U.S. firsthand, rather than his visit being any kind of tipping point in the Soviet Union's downfall. Anyway, Rob…

There was joke in the Soviet Union "if you see a line, get in it." It didn't matter if the line was for toilet paper and you had enough. You'd get some extra toilet paper and barter with someone who had extra laundry detergent and not enough TP. This was common Soviet experience. It's somewhat surprising to me that Yeltsin, who was obviously high up in the party apparatus, was surprised at the plenty of the US, but n…

I think my comment may have been confusing. The "Soviet experience" was well understood in 1989 (see the clip of the 1984 movie I posted). Only weeks away from Yeltsin's jaunt to the supermarket was the collapse of the Berlin Wall, a true harbinger of the demise of the USSR. Had Yeltsin visited a dreary American DMV, rather than a bountiful supermarket, nothing would have changed.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#96

Post by thriftwy »

boulos wrote: post #47
ubermonkey wrote: post #9

I dunno about Yeltsin and the Houston store, but I do know this: I went on a student tour of the USSR as a college student in 1991, arranged through my University (U of Alabama). I was getting a minor in Russian language, and it seemed like a fun trip. It actually got MORE fun because in the run-up to the trip (in spring, 91) there was some dissent in the USSR and many parents wouldn't let their kids go. In order to…

> Then he saw the bananas. He really wanted bananas. He wouldn't ask for bananas. So I grabbed a bunch and put them in the basket. > "Are you rich?" No. I have a good student job. "Are your parents in government?" No. My dad's dead; Cassie's dad is a doctor in another state. "Anyone can shop here?" Absolutely. In multiple communist countries in Eastern Europe, bananas were special because they only came ~once a year…

For worker class in Russia, it is super common to own (as opposed to rent) your own apartment and also own a country house ("dacha").

You may be otherwise piss-poor, wage wise.

The supermarkets has improved greatly though - not quite the USA level, but on par with Western Europe or sometimes slightly better (more chains, easier to eat healthy)

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#97

Post by alamortsubite »

rippercushions wrote: post #74
alamortsubite wrote: post #12

This sounds apocryphal. I don't doubt Yeltsin was impressed by his visit to the supermarket, but by 1989 the writing was more than on the wall for the demise of the USSR. I imagine it'd be more accurate to say that Yeltsin was excited by the prospects of a transformed economy, seeing the prosperity of the U.S. firsthand, rather than his visit being any kind of tipping point in the Soviet Union's downfall. Anyway, Rob…

Straight from the horse's mouth: > In Yeltsin’s own autobiography, he wrote about the experience at Randall’s, which shattered his view of communism

Yes, that's my point. Yeltsin's view may have been shattered, but the USSR was soon to be toast, either way.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#98

Post by thriftwy »

avgcorrection wrote: post #56

The author seems to believe that Yeltsin was a moron who thought that the most advanced capitalist country in history would possibly be comparable to a country that belonged to the Tsar less than one hundred years prior. Well, maybe he was an idiot.

Well the UK belongs to a King to that day, how does it make it any less of a developed country?

You seem to greatly downplay the historic Russia.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#99

Post by thriftwy »

advisedwang wrote: post #11

It's naive to imagine Yeltsin's mind was really changed by a spontaneous visit. He didn't have intelligence on what a US supermarket was like? The premiere of a superpower just randomly decided to visit a grocery store? No. Yeltsin was contemplating reforms and changes and wanted to collect a political tool he could later user if needed. He knew exactly how this visit would go, and it was intended so he could use it…

I think that Yeltsin had his own experience of shopping (or otherwise getting stuff shipped) from a "special distribution center" which he knew was unavailable to 99.8% of population yet had way worse selection of goods than the random USA supermarket. It was whatever stuff they could buy in Finland, basically.

He had a family. Personal experiences are hard to beat. He also started his career in Yekaterinburg, from some mid-range position, so he was not that detached from the life of common folk. He just saw a very different kind of life which does not translate to knowing things in theory.

Re: Boris Yeltsin's visit to a suburban Houston supermarket in 1989 (2016)

#100

Post by krisoft »

cturner wrote: post #69
krisoft wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much possible yes. The banana trade in particular has a sordid history. Here is one about striking workers masacred: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Massacre Or there is this Guatemalan coup d’état which was lobbied for by United Fruit Company: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27éta... So, yes. I think it might just happen that buying banana from somewhere keeps them poor. These are…

> I think it might just happen that buying banana from somewhere keeps them poor. What would happen if there was no market for those bananas?

Then they don’t get masacred to force others to labour on the banana plantations, and their democraticaly elected leaders don’t get overthrown by the CIA.

Maybe they find other ways to thrive, maybe not. Banan is not the only thing they could grow, and growing things is not the only way to make an economy work.

This is not an abstract economy problem from a econ 101 textbook. History cannot be rolled like that back and “what-if” is not a question we can answer.

What we know is that violence has been commited with the direct goal of securing said banana supply.

Post reply on HN