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Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

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Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#251

Post by sliken »

gambiting wrote: post #224
sliken wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well regenerative braking is limited and even more limited when cool. So Tesla's trying to train you to use the brake pedal when you want stronger braking. Makes sense to me, last thing I want is to get half as much braking as I expected. So with regen I get variable braking, but I get a reward (more range and less brake wear) if I plan ahead enough to make it work. However if there is surprise or immediate need for…

In a well designed system you have absolutely no idea whether the car is using the regenerative brake or proper brakes when you use the pedal - my Volvo XC60 uses regerative brakes first and you honestly can't tell when the transition happens. There is no "oh shit I need more braking" moment because the pedal operates in a very predictable linear fashion, like in any normal car. Same in my VW e-UP. The algorithms for…

So sure, it feels great and provide predictable braking. But is harder to maximize range and minimize brake wear and brake dust.

I generally drive only using regen, because I can tell. If you remove the feedback it's going to be harder, especially since the level of regen available can radically differ based on temperature and level of charge.

So do you want regen to be invisible? Or do you want better range, efficiency, and brake wear?

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#252

Post by xracy »

michaelteter wrote: post #249
xracy wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with this, is that, like the original post states. It's still trying to optimize the horse and buggy. Anything that's giving you a per-person riding experience is not going to perform as well as batching a bunch of people together for a common ride.

This would still be mostly a common ride, although the space requirements would be increased significantly. But with the automation and routing systems (and coordination) it would be far superior to cars on roads.

It still sounds like we each have our own individual pod that's less efficient than if we had one common pod that can handle a bunch of people going in a common direction.

Distributed systems that have to coordinate multiple moving parts are more prone to breakage, and single points of failure.

Not to mention the infrastructure that's required to build millions of what it sounds like are indivdiual train cars (albeit, much smaller), and the tracks required to get people to where they're going.

You're reinventing the train, but worse there... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvvA_GToc0M&ab_channel=AdamS...)

Better would be to make train cars with seats that have better isolation for people traveling in small groups. But honestly, I think we're overestimating the number of people that need this. And there's a small possibly they could still be serviced by a small car in a world where 80% of people are able to use other services.

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#253

Post by gambiting »

sliken wrote: post #251
gambiting wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a well designed system you have absolutely no idea whether the car is using the regenerative brake or proper brakes when you use the pedal - my Volvo XC60 uses regerative brakes first and you honestly can't tell when the transition happens. There is no "oh shit I need more braking" moment because the pedal operates in a very predictable linear fashion, like in any normal car. Same in my VW e-UP. The algorithms for…

So sure, it feels great and provide predictable braking. But is harder to maximize range and minimize brake wear and brake dust. I generally drive only using regen, because I can tell. If you remove the feedback it's going to be harder, especially since the level of regen available can radically differ based on temperature and level of charge. So do you want regen to be invisible? Or do you want better range, efficie…

In my XC60 the dial just goes below zero when you're breaking into regen zone, and then there is a little red area at the end of it - if you get into the red zone, normal brakes are used. So there is feedback, you just don't feel it through the pedal.

It looks like this:

https://www.swedespeed.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror...

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#254

Post by acdha »

yellowapple wrote: post #248
acdha wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m hoping there’ll be a more mature rental / car share market, too. It’d make a lot of sense to have no/low-car city centers (e.g. accessibility and delivery only zones, low speed limits & non-prioritized roads, etc.) and more high speed road infrastructure on the edge of cities but the people I know who’ve had significant issues with things like Zipcar reservations seems like the greatest barrier for that. If peopl…

Even putting vehicle storage on city edges (and/or concentrating it close to highways) would mitigate a lot of the problems we currently see with car-centric infrastructure. Even if I own my own car, I don't necessarily need it to be close by if I can rent a garage somewhere - so long as I can get anywhere in town (including said garage) easily and quickly via public transit and/or bike and/or foot.

This is also where I wish we’d market price it more: having to pay for street parking would make it obvious how much taxpayers have been subsidizing it, often at everyone’s expense (pedestrians stuck with narrow sidewalks, drivers using ostensibly two-way streets which are now only one-way between increasingly large vehicles).

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#255

Post by pizza234 »

generalizations wrote: post #187
pizza234 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't personally think it's realistic to expect everybody/all people (who mainly work for a living/work hard) to ask them to give up the luxury of spending their hard earned money on being able to transport themselves (to and from their job) in something other than the comfort of their own car Societies don't need to ask citizens to choose a given mean of transport; they can route their choices them by making som…

> Societies don't need to ask citizens to choose a given mean of transport; they can route their choices them by making some means more convenient and other ones less. I'm reading that as, "we don't need to ask , we can just make them do it." Which to me is pretty arrogant.

> I'm reading that as, "we don't need to ask, we can just make them do it." Which to me is pretty arrogant.

It was never "asked" in first place; there was a large discussion on HN around the article about automakers driving the policies (https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history).

It's also not forcing anybody; it's a shift of conveniences. In a hypothetical situation with fantasy metrics, making a city 2x as comfortable for sustainable means (bikes, motorbikes, public transport) and 0.5x as comfortable for cars will not force anybody to use the former - people who love their time in the cars will still be able to.

(I stress that this applies to cities where logistics make a restructuring possible, which is not the case everywhere)

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#256

Post by cbsmith »

esturk wrote: post #175
cbsmith wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article seems a bit misleading. I have to think the impact of cold weather on an ICE vehicle is highly variable on other factors. It certainly wasn't quite so bad when I was growing up in Canada, and most of the variance was attributable to differences in winter vs. summer fuel mixes. Most of the effects it describes are only in effect while the car is warming up, and given that say, engine oil typically warms u…

No where did the energy.gov article nor parent article mention interior heating. The discussion was always about battery performance vs ICE performance degradation under cold weather.

> No where did the energy.gov article nor parent article mention interior heating.

That would be my point. Most of the impact on the range of EV cars in cold weather is the impact of interior heating.

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#257

Post by fwungy »

jtc331 wrote: post #173
fwungy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can fill up the gas car quickly almost anywhere if I'm running low on fuel. Also, survival time in a stuck ICE in Winter is much higher.

Actually the “stuck in winter” problem for EVs is a myth: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38883045/electric-cars-sn...

'Lane ends by saying EVs can "work as well as ICE counterparts in many, or even most, ordinary situations." But in the extraordinary ones, like 16-hour blizzard traffic jams? "We're not there yet.'

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#258

Post by esturk »

cbsmith wrote: post #256
esturk wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No where did the energy.gov article nor parent article mention interior heating. The discussion was always about battery performance vs ICE performance degradation under cold weather.

> No where did the energy.gov article nor parent article mention interior heating. That would be my point. Most of the impact on the range of EV cars in cold weather is the impact of interior heating.

So that's optional then? Not really a compelling argument as oppose to the operation of the vehicle.

Re: Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

#259

Post by dzikimarian »

michaelteter wrote: post #229
dzikimarian wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's 15 minutes in pretty relaxed traffic and music/audiobook. Garage to office door + easy detour to shop if necessary. In the summer bike is nice alternative, but during bad weather there's nothing comparable to the comfort of car. Please remember not everyone lives in bay area with long commute and mild weather all year long :-)

The article was about that person's reality of 230km round trip commute each day, and the discussion was related. A 15min commute as you have is a different situation (much better!). Nobody is trying to take away your car. I realize that it is often framed that way in US media, as if the options are public transport OR private cars. I have a car in the Netherlands which I use for some trips where public transport is…

Well I met guy on HN, who was adamant that bike is always the right choice, as long as you dress properly. Given recent 30cm of snow, then melted by rain I kinda disagree :-)

But yes, if we try to complement them, not just ban, this is very reasonable. I also travel by train quite often because it's simply very convenient compared to car.

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