Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#631

Post by epolanski » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 3:58 PM UTC

I actually prefer software engineering to pure coding.

Pure coding honestly is boring after many years. There's a limited amount of times I can write code that listens to some event, manipulates data and passes it eventually to some api.

Doesn't matter if it's augmented reality, databases, cli tools, it's always the same thing.

On the other hand I find much more interesting setting up projects, their DX, their architecture, solving clients/customers problems under limited time and budget constrains.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#632

Post by nunez » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #518

mulmen wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a place like that and it was awesome. Unfortunately we were so good at what we did across the board that we got bought by another company to integrate into their larger offering. It made a lot of sense from a business perspective but the tech team in our office was made redundant and so my time there came to an end. I think this is the inevitable conclusion to good, small companies. Since it actually work…

Is it really that hard for owners to resist the alure of a buyout? I dunno, I always like to think that I’d continue doing the good thing that I’ve got going.

If you don't, your successor will. Money makes the world go round.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#633

Post by DrBazza » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

> I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company.

You're at the wrong company if you're unhappy regardless of the size.

I've worked at a very small company which was miserable because the owner didn't have a clue and was only interested in the bottom line to the point of letting the software and the systems atrophy.

I've worked at Megabank, and it was also miserable. Actually writing code probably ended up being a sum total of 3-4 hours a week. At best. Too many meetings. Absurd change control system. Crazy processes and sign off.

And then there have been a few mid-sized companies - 20-200, and they've been the most fun. Get on with coding and even whilst managing a small team.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#634

Post by nunez » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

v-erne wrote: post #232

jcbrand wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so I hung out in the lobby for several hours waiting for anyone brave enough to get me to the badge people Did you consider asking someone going in or out to help you get a badge or to put you into contact with the right person? Sounds like you passively waited for someone to come and help you, which might be fine for a short while, but eventually it's better to take action. I've never heard of a "professional benc…

>> I've never heard of a "professional bench warmer" in software development. I think this is real. My friend who is serial Project Manager (he works for big corps here in Poland and changes job almost every year for last 15 years) actually uses the term "on bench" for programers that do not have projects assigned to them and he claims that he quite often hires people before project is confirmed, so from time to time…

yeah that's how a lot of consulting companies work

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#635

Post by xwdv » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #541

lelanthran wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, are you saying that the audience of the statement is on purpose only men? Isn't it? Wasn't Socrates replying to a question from a young man when he (allegedly) said that? Since the origin of that quote is directly in response to a man, isn't it aimed at ... men? [1] https://www.quora.com/Did-Socrates-really-say-if-you-get-a-b...

I really want to take your argument as a reason why it's 100% ok to phrase it exclusionary, but then I get a response like this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34376163 and am reminded how that general tone will keep women away from our industry rather than attract them.

A long time ago this industry was built on women, the first programmers were women. It was a female dominated field. So what happened? The women stopped giving a fuck and the men took over.

The industry has plenty of attractive qualities for any sex: Good money, good jobs. These far outweigh the occasional toxic male who is easily put down these days. If women aren’t signing up, then maybe they just don’t care about computers as badly as people want them to.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#636

Post by yafbum » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #606

yafbum wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you're kind of forced into it: if your growth starts taking off faster than you thought, you may be in need of more capital just to stay in business. At that point you have a choice: slam the brakes (turn down customers), borrow (risky), raise (dilutes you), or sell out. If you can find a solid working relationship within the acquirer's company, all is good...

There is actually nothing wrong with turning down business. No need to grow faster than you can handle. A company in the situation you describe is doing something very right, so maintaining that seems like a good strategy.

For an entrepreneur who set out to fix a problem in the world, it can feel very wrong not to give customers the solution that you know you can give them, for mere capital reasons.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#637

Post by t43562 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

JakeAl wrote: post #513

thwawawa1234 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agile is made up. The vast majority of places “do it wrong”. Coaches come in and make things even worse, with even less understanding. Saying “they are doing it wrong” and having nothing change isn’t doing anything, and it’s not really a great point. (Not specifically calling you out I just hear this all the time) “Fauxagile” *is* agile, because thats what the majority of places in reality do. “Agile” needs a complet…

Agile just means making it up as you go when you have people who don't have the knowledge or experience to define first exactly what is required. If more programmers became managers and could work with the stakeholders, most specifically the clients that are ultimately paying their salaries then there would be fewer problems with waterfall. My experience is that if programmers would read the design document written b…

Usually you know the least at the start so your plans at that point are rubbish. So you keep refining your plans .....

Who gets to do things that they have experience in all the time? Not me at lest. And what manual do you read ? There's almost never anyone who understands it all quite apart from having written "a manual".

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#638

Post by t43562 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

fabioborellini wrote: post #563

lelanthran wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

This is a great piece. My software engineering training just held the assumption that the world runs on agile processes by now. Waterfall-like processes were a historical reference and a failure. Since external customers and non-swe stakeholders expect binding contracts and even waterfall, I would consider it essential to learn how to interface agile processes with the said contract-driven stakeholders. Telling them…

It's why contracted-for software is so awful - contractors do absolutely anything to meet the conditions and then they're gone and not responsible anymore.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#639

Post by t43562 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

LAC-Tech wrote: post #515

lelanthran wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

It's like you reached inside my head, pulled out my crudely formulated thoughts and feelings on why it struck me as ill-advised, and refined and explained everything perfectly. Internal teams! My work these days is directly with people paying for the thing. That's why Agile gives me the shivers.

It's unfortunate that you haven't understood any of the problems of writing software or buying on contract despite having it laid out for you.

In reality people change their minds - especially when they see the software - so there's a lot to be said for building it incrementally and showing it to them.

The fact that contracts don't suit this behavior might explain why contracts are such an awful way to get software and why they so often go wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#640

Post by t43562 » Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

It's hard to be helpful because I find this a bit like saying "I want a job where I can cook cool new food but not do the washing up."

You're more likely to get this being a contractor or at a small company. Most of it's going to be a matter of asking the right questions though - you probably want to have some well defined area of responsibility and not have to work with anyone else in it.