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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#621
post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this saying misogynistic? Because it’s a statement about men or because of the implied possibility they could be unhappy in their marriage? Also, why is it horrible? It appears this world has become manically trigger-happy to label something as -ist or -istic, when it contains even only a hint of something someone could possibly understand the wrong way. It would be curious to examine in a psychological study…

There are plenty of layers at which it's misogynistic, but the most obvious one perhaps is that it wholly centers around the man in the relationship. Why must the wife be the source of the husband's unhappiness ("nagging wife" trope)? Why does he get to be the great philosopher if they're both unhappy? You can say "it's just a saying, it would be equally true with the roles reversed" -- but then, why aren't they? Sur…

The standard you've laid out proposes that any statement about a man's experience in a relationship is by definition misogynistic, because it's centers the man (and, of course, erases women). Do you stand by that?

Additionally, consider that you are the one bringing the nagging wife trope into this: it's merely one of many possibile explanations and unhappy marriage.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fair point. The whole DevOps thing is so ludicrous. I've seen companies that don't just have a "DevOps team" (which is absurd in and of itself) but multiple DevOps Teams, and I'm pretty sure there are some DevOps Teams that have embedded DevOps Teams that in turn have more embedded DevOps Teams. And all of these people are completely gated off from interacting with the people actually building applications by…

DevOps merges Dev and Ops. It is not an extra team.

Sure, you and I know that. But try telling that to all of these companies out here standing up a "devops team" left and right!

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't upvote this enough times. Time and time again you see this: people say "I hate agile because of X, Y and Z" where X, Y, and Z - at best - are orthogonal to the idea of Agile, and at worst (and perhaps even "ordinarily") are complete anathema to the spirit of Agile. Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold…

> Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold a bill of goods. Now that's not to say that those things don't have (some) value. Spot on. You and parent have hit the two points that matter: 1. Agile is about removing impediments to productivity 2. velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, bac…

I think the real reason you cannot have real agile is because businesses don't run in a way that is compatible with agile, so over time all processes within a business will evolve to match how the business itself functions.

Sadly, I think you are correct. It's very hard, at best, to make "the business" operate in a way that's truly compatible with the agile approach on the tech side. :-(

I won't say it's impossible, but it's definitely not easy.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#624
post #356
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of non-technical people who have made my life happier. The more effective managers and business consultants/owners find a way of making my life easier by avoiding road blocks and taking on work that I didn't want to do anyways. The more frustrating ones would find arbitrary limits to my ability to produce or micro-manage. This isn't an everyone problem, this is an acute number of people who made prod…

I think a critical reduction of your praise of good/effective non-technical people is: They made your life easier by triaging with all the other non-technical people. I wouldn't assert that this isn't valuable in most organizations; but it drives further into the OP's point that if non-technical people weren't involved in the process, things would simply Be Better; and large swaths of very real, numerous organization…

Great stories. For me the behavior you've described is what I see in a lot of experienced/senior devs. They're not just good at programming and building things, they're also good at interacting with other people to make things happen in a way that's efficient and brings value to the business.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#625
I prefer to use term "programmer" to describe to people who I am, rather than "software engineer" etc. And because programming is what I truly love to do.

Even though, in my resume I use Software Engineer/Developer of course, because "programming" does not bring you money.

Why so? To be honest, I think that we, the programmers, rarely make real things. Real developers make buildings, software developers do not make anything real rather than text on computer screens.

In its root the purpose of programming as a job was developing programs that would automate processes of real economics. E.g. to automate industries(manufacture lines) or maybe to optimize transportation logistics. Today's economics is post-industrial economics. Basically, the economics that focuses on control of human attention and selling this "control" to other actors. Computer technologies is a big part of it, but it is loosely connected to automation.

Only a limited number (a big number, but still limited) of people are capable to program. This is quite specific kind of mind. And only a small subset of programmers are capable to think in terms of programming and in terms of how to influence other people (the true value of post-industrial economics) at the same time. So, the ordinary programmer, to be honest, does not fit well in this system.

On the other hand there are a lot of people who can't program, and they loosely understand computer systems, but they are good at the art of spreading influence. These people are primary agents of post-industrial economics, and they are truly rule this system. They occupy high positions in companies and corporations, and they spread their way of thinking and ways of management to other minorities (including programmers).

We, the programmers, have to deal with this situation somehow if we want to have our part of the economic pie. Perhaps, through the trade-offs and compromises. But we have to admit that we are only minor cogs in this system. That is how it is in the current Economic Formation.

Looking for better jobs in companies that value pure programming would inevitably imply of looking for companies that don't perform well in the post-industrial economics.

The solution that I see is to do an ordinary "software engineering" job the way the rulers of the System want us to do it, and in the way we don't like to do it. At the same time we can working on the stuff that we love, and in the way we love to do it solely (or maybe with cooperation with other programmers). This is the best practical compromise that I can think of.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" OK, not terrible, but why not "interactions and tools over individuals and processes"? De-emphasize individual's egos and ritualized processes, focus on the things that get work done and communication between entities. "Working software over comprehensive documentation" Tends to make very frustrating-to-use software, because it's never fully working and has…

> "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" TLDR: Businesses purchase development effort in terms of contracts, and the contract is almost always "You will deliver $X for $Y amount, in $Z months or less" . Agile is the opposite of that as far as business is concerned - "We will pay $A per hour until our money runs out or we are satisfied with what we get" . I've never understood this one, to be honest. Busin…

> I mean, look at it this way: when you ask a crew to paint your house, you specify the colors upfront. You don't iterate with them on after every room, or every wall.

This isn't a useful analogy - more often, it's like asking a crew how much it would cost and how long it would take to paint your house, except the house isn't built yet, you're not sure what you're going to use it for (or whether you'll actually use it as a house rather than a B&B), plus you reserve the right to change colors at any point in the process.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it help if, as someone on the other side that for the most part only plans as the feature is discussed on their head and then jumps into code, I say that the code is where I "document" my plans as types, comments, tests, and stubs, which I progressively expand into implementations? On the same vein, I'd add that some languages greatly facilitate this process, while others make it more of a pain.

I don't think that counts. I love code but code doesn't capture the "whys". It's also not very good at giving an overview of the problem.

The "why" is pretty much the only reason to write comments!

Overviews of the problem are more in the realm of spec rather than implementation planning and is another issue altogether. Of course you need to know what you're solving, but it is my point that I don't need to write a detailed document on how I'm going to solve most everyday problems when I can jump into the code and progressively work from there using the tools provided by the language.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difference between doing Agile and being agile is the same as education. You can have engineers who are educated well and you can have engineers who get stuff done, well without a high level of ‘education’.

You’re talking about training, not education. A masters in engineering will be an experience in software architecture. An engineering role under one of these management styles will be an experience in training.

No I’m not. You are.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

> Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I'm not sure I understand what this means, can someone clarify for me?

I have detailed that and linked an even more comprehensive explanation in this sibling (cousin?) comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34380697

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#630
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Was Aristotle misogynistic? Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle%27s_views_on_women

Wasn’t he the guy who said that woman had a different number of teeth than men but never bothered to check?
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