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On Trucking

snowingpine.com

41–50 of 113 posts

Re: On Trucking

#41
Maybe this is a stupid question but is there any value in trying to put solar panels on the roofs of trucks to offset fuel costs?

Solar panels are (new) around $0.75 / Watt and less than that used. Maybe you could fit 9 or so on the top which, depending on what panels you use, could be about a 1kW or so in sunlight. Maybe it's too much of a stretch to ask for a modified engine but heating the driver cabin or even providing some type of heating or cooling to the container might help offset costs.

Re: On Trucking

#42

Super interesting analysis of the trucking market. A couple of questions would be: * At what speed is the industry going to embrace self-driving / "augmented driving" in trucks? I'd imagine a driver would still be required at the wheel in case of emergencies for the foreseeable future. What new skills would truckers have to learn? * Given the environmental impact of trucking (self-driving or not), what are some inter…

IMHO (and this is just my relatively uninformed opinion), the key driving force here will be the shift to electric trucks. These are more expensive to buy but cheaper to operate. At least right now. And also easier to turn into self driving platforms.

ICE trucks are really hard to operate. You are basically micro managing the gears, dealing with lot of fairly complex bit of equipment, etc. Electric trucks basically have no gears, heaps of torque and don't really require much more than just pointing them in the right direction. Apparently as easy as driving a normal car.

So, electrification strikes me as a core requirement for self driving. And of course electric trucks are also more environmentally friendly. Less brake dust (regenerative braking) and less emissions. And the batteries are recycled at the end of their life. So there's that.

The shift to electric trucks is already happening of course but its very capital intensive. Millions of trucks with a price tag of hundreds of thousands each means a lot of capital will have to be expended. Trillions basically. That alone will ensure it will take quite long to complete. A decade minimum before most new trucks are electric and then at least another decade before most ICE trucks have been retired. And the first generations won't be self driving. So these new trucks would be in service for a decade plus before being swapped out for self driving ones. So, if that takes another decade to happen, we're talking 30-40 years. Minimum. But with the first ones on the road as early as less than a decade from now. It's going to be a slow process.

Insurance is basically about risk. Insurance companies like to minimize risk and maximize profits. An electric truck that is less likely to break down regularly is less risky and would on paper require a lower insurance fee. And then a self driving truck is less likely to get into accidents or other liability related issues. Which again means lower fees. So, that helps.

Re: On Trucking

#43

Super interesting analysis of the trucking market. A couple of questions would be: * At what speed is the industry going to embrace self-driving / "augmented driving" in trucks? I'd imagine a driver would still be required at the wheel in case of emergencies for the foreseeable future. What new skills would truckers have to learn? * Given the environmental impact of trucking (self-driving or not), what are some inter…

With all due respect the hubris (and folly) of Silicon Valley pursuing driveless cars and trucks as well as things like uber is astounding.

It will fail in the market because the technology does not exist and will not exist in the foreseeable future unless or until something like AGI is perfected.

Driving is not a closed domain problem. There will always be fat tail circumstances where statistical methods will break down.

Furthermore driving, freight haul and taxicabs are NOT natural monopolies. They are not areas where technology can give enduring market power that society will tolerate (except perhaps in the case of regulatory / institutional capture). Instead they are low margin, established, service- commodity businesses.

The point of trucking is to safely and efficiently get goods from A to B. Until machines / automation can do it cheaper than humans it will not be viable.

There is no shortage of cheap low skilled labor in the USA.

Why invest in hugely expensive automation in an open problem domain that you can not even perfectly model when you can just pay a driver $25 an hour to do it better?

There is so much more easily attainable low hanging hanging fruit.

Why not automate warehouses?

Trains? Waitstaff? Insurance agents? Real estate agents?

Triage nursing?

All these are probably more attainable.

The driverless delusion reeks of sophomoric understanding of the problem domain fueled by credulous media and group think.

Personally I wouldn't hire anybody for a thinking role who believes that driverless trucks or taxis are viable marketable product for the open road. It is a good heuristic to separate critical thinkers from bandwagon riders.

It is literally an easier technical problem to land a man on the moon than to design an autonomous road vehicle that can do better and be more cost effective than humans in all circumstances.

Hopefully we will stop talking about this foolishness in a couple years.

https://blog.piekniewski.info/2021/12/18/farcical-self-delus...

Re: On Trucking

#44

Awesome write-up. Would be really curious for insight into why truck purchase loans run 8-10% APR with 20% down. If anything, I'd expect them to be lower risk and easier to re-posses?

Probably because it's a cut throat business and truckers operating on razor thin margins are more likely to default on their loans when they get into trouble. The second hand value of the trucks is not enough to cover that risk. A two year old truck has a value of course, but it's nowhere near the new value of the truck.

Re: On Trucking

#45
post #38

Relevant John McPhee article from a couple of decades ago: https://archive.md/5GIIg He rode across the country with an owner operator, and he tells the story. "A true truck has eighteen wheels, or more. From Atlanta and Charlotte to North Powder, Oregon, this was the first time that Ainsworth had so much as tapped his air horn. In three thousand one hundred and ninety miles I rode with him he used it four times. He g…

> She was riding in a convertible and her top was down. Now that is a great ambiguous sentence.

Off vs down makes a difference.

Re: On Trucking

#46
post #41

Maybe this is a stupid question but is there any value in trying to put solar panels on the roofs of trucks to offset fuel costs? Solar panels are (new) around $0.75 / Watt and less than that used. Maybe you could fit 9 or so on the top which, depending on what panels you use, could be about a 1kW or so in sunlight. Maybe it's too much of a stretch to ask for a modified engine but heating the driver cabin or even pro…

its definitely been proposed [0]

[0] https://www.ttnews.com/articles/nacfe-issues-confidence-repo...

Re: On Trucking

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pet peeve: no matter what you do in a truck someone gets mad. You’re either driving too fast or too slow. You try to stay in the slow lane but catch up to the person going 45 on the interstate who speeds up as soon as you get next to them trapping you in the fast lane until you give them ‘incentive’ to let you back over. I could go on and on but my government mandated 30 break was over six minutes ago and there’s peo…

People are generally oblivious idiots, but I've also seen some truly insane truck drivers on I-84 in CT, stuff like tailgating people in the left lane at 70+ at night.

I’ve seen countless truly insane car drivers over the years where I honestly thought people were going to die. Some did die.

I’ve also have seen some truck crashes where I’m like “how is that even possible?”

The thing with truck drivers is the bad ones don’t last very long. It’s almost impossible to get another driving job after getting fired for being a shitty driver.

—edit—

And law enforcement holds professional drivers to a higher standard so there’s no talking your way out of a ticket if they see you doing something stupid. Most of the time that’s when they get all up into the logbook and full on level 1 DOT inspection on the truck.

Re: On Trucking

#48
post #45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She was riding in a convertible and her top was down. Now that is a great ambiguous sentence.

Off vs down makes a difference.

So does the antecedent of the pronoun, though. It's McPhee. He knew exactly what he was doing.

Re: On Trucking

#49
post #41

Maybe this is a stupid question but is there any value in trying to put solar panels on the roofs of trucks to offset fuel costs? Solar panels are (new) around $0.75 / Watt and less than that used. Maybe you could fit 9 or so on the top which, depending on what panels you use, could be about a 1kW or so in sunlight. Maybe it's too much of a stretch to ask for a modified engine but heating the driver cabin or even pro…

Solar powered 'reefer' trailers have been around for a long time, just not economically viable until recently. Dozens of companies showed new designs last year.

Re: On Trucking

#50

Super interesting analysis of the trucking market. A couple of questions would be: * At what speed is the industry going to embrace self-driving / "augmented driving" in trucks? I'd imagine a driver would still be required at the wheel in case of emergencies for the foreseeable future. What new skills would truckers have to learn? * Given the environmental impact of trucking (self-driving or not), what are some inter…

With all due respect the hubris (and folly) of Silicon Valley pursuing driveless cars and trucks as well as things like uber is astounding. It will fail in the market because the technology does not exist and will not exist in the foreseeable future unless or until something like AGI is perfected. Driving is not a closed domain problem. There will always be fat tail circumstances where statistical methods will break…

> Driving is not a closed domain problem. There will always be fat tail circumstances where statistical methods will break down.

Some of it is. Walmart has already deployed some self-driving semis in Arkansas that go between a warehouse and a store. There are a significant number of routes like this, always taking the same path back and forth between two places in a relatively controlled environment.

> Why invest in hugely expensive automation in an open problem domain that you can not even perfectly model when you can just pay a driver $25 an hour to do it better?

Driving time is a big one. There are strict limits on how many hours drivers can be driving on a given day. That means you've got a huge, expensive machine sitting idle for most of the day. Self-driving can get you double the usage of an expensive asset.

> Why not automate warehouses?

This is happening already. https://www.wsj.com/story/amazon-takes-steps-toward-warehous...

> It is literally an easier technical problem to land a man on the moon than to design an autonomous road vehicle that can do better and be more cost effective than humans in all circumstance.

Nobody's saying it has to work in all circumstances. You can choose where to deploy self-driving vehicles. If you stick to the American Southwest, you still have an enormous opportunity, but you eliminate one of the big challenges for autonomous vehicles - snow and other difficult weather.

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