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Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#291

Post by GrabbinD33ze69 »

kraig911 wrote: post #19
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #6

> I have come to a realization that I don't really enjoy Software Engineering(& the processes that it comes with) but I do love programming & solving problems. I can almost guarantee that you’re just at the wrong company. Some software companies can turn even the simplest tasks into a grueling series of processes, endless meetings, and joint work across a big number of “stakeholders”. These companies will take the jo…

1000x times this. It's a weird thing our profession. There's a horrible but apt (misogynistic even) saying. Happily married men are happy husbands - Unhappily married men are great philosophers. I really feel agile has killed the happiness of our industry because it's met with a lot of back and forth, meetings, rituals, and meta-work and not actual productivity (If agile is done well though it can be amazing but that…

ITT: we observe the sheer amount of ignorance & naivety that rears its ugly head when stemlords attempt to discuss any sort of social issue / concept. It's crazy how one would interpret you pointing out the slight misogynistic undertones of the phrase you quoted as "making things political". I'm not going to mention any popular figure by name as that would be quite inflammatory, but it's not wonder certain individuals can disguise terrible opinions as the "facts & logic" based take & especially dupe men who are in a stem field. Really reinforces the stereotype of male engineers/scientists who think their field's knowledge somehow universally applies to the less "technical" sciences such as social sciences.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#292

Post by peoplefromibiza »

axxto wrote: post #284
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> But most of all, dear friends, that quote is 2,300 years old! Was Aristotle misogynistic? Yep > In his work Politics (1254b13–14), Aristotle states "as regards the sexes, the male is by nature superior and the female inferior, the male ruler and the female subject". > While Aristotle reduced women's roles in society, and promoted the idea that women should receive less food and nourishment than males, he also criti…

[flagged]

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#293

Post by chinchilla2020 »

torben-friis wrote: post #25

I am the exact opposite. I mean, I don’t like processes and meetings, but I do like the planning and architecture part much more than I like actually writing code. Usually, if your mind is decently organized, I find that the problem is solved before writing a single line of code. If that happens, then the actual part of writing becomes dull and mechanical - the problem has already been solved. I’ve never understood p…

Unfortunately, it takes 6 months to a year to fully cultivate a strong culture around a process.

Two factors cause this to be an exercise in futility:

1. Job mobility

People are incentivized to job hop. Most employees are ramping into a new role, coasting/leetcoding while they interview elsewhere, or preparing to transfer to a new role in your company.

In a 1.5 year employment window in a given role, a team member may only be getting 6 months of productive time in the new work paradigm.

2. Capricious Management culture

The new era of tech has ushered in a fickle type of boss who has constant pivots, realignments, and shifting priorities. They speak of some utopian future for your organization and paint a picture that everything is always 'in transition'.

This means that nobody seriously considers your CICD or Agile paradigm to be a permanent thing... you only get half hearted attempts to follow it for the 8 months that it lasts before a new paradigm is forced onto your group.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#294

Post by xiphias2 »

icedchai wrote: post #259
xiphias2 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this all the time and see that software engineers don't even read the agile manifesto: ,,Individuals and interactions over processes and tools'' What you are describing is the opposite of agile

The truth is that the manifesto may as well be fiction. I'm talking about reality... what the industry actually practices as "Agile." That's why you read it all the time: because it's true.

Maybe it's true at some companies, but it has nothing to do with agile / scrum, but letting non-tech people who love confrontation take over engineering leadership from engineers who are afraid of confrontation (which sounds like the disaster it is).

Robert Martin (one of the creators of the agile manifesto) explains it quite well in ,,Clean Code'' presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EmboKQH8lM

The whole presentation should be a must watch by all engineers so that they understand what _is_ agile to the point when they know it better than product / project managers / non-tech people.

It's hard to get a better description than the original source, and no non-tech person has authority to override the real agile at that point.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#297

Post by peoplefromibiza »

mahogany wrote: post #274
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I broadly agree with your point, but then you decided to search for quotes that apparently support your argument, and you picked... Schopenhauer, in a discussion about misogyny and marriage, which is pretty hilarious.

narrative is King in 21th century my friend.

I did not make the rules.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#298

Post by wojciii »

v-erne wrote: post #232
jcbrand wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so I hung out in the lobby for several hours waiting for anyone brave enough to get me to the badge people Did you consider asking someone going in or out to help you get a badge or to put you into contact with the right person? Sounds like you passively waited for someone to come and help you, which might be fine for a short while, but eventually it's better to take action. I've never heard of a "professional benc…

>> I've never heard of a "professional bench warmer" in software development. I think this is real. My friend who is serial Project Manager (he works for big corps here in Poland and changes job almost every year for last 15 years) actually uses the term "on bench" for programers that do not have projects assigned to them and he claims that he quite often hires people before project is confirmed, so from time to time…

I have 20+ years of experience in different companies (software and just using software);and I never ever heard of this behaviour.

I never changed job (Unusually work 2-4 years at one company) where I didn't have everything ready on my first day.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#299

Post by peoplefromibiza »

schrodinger wrote: post #210
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm sorry, it really isn't a big deal and I don't think anyone would be triggered or offended by the quote! And of course historical context matters. The poster was just proffering a friendly reminder that to push society forward it's helpful to consider these things. It's just like changing our default branches from master to main, honestly probably not a huge deal to any rationale person, but the cost is negligible…

> he poster was just proffering a friendly reminder that to push society forward it's helpful to consider these things

It is totally not.

As Ricky Gervais put it beautifully, like it or not, if you categorize the people of the past with the standards of today, you are preparing the people of the (near) future to categorize you about what you say today.

Now imagine that people think of Aristotle as a misogynist, like if it is actually important, he died 2,300 years ago after all and nobody studies Aristotle because "and now let's read about that guy who hated women, because it's something important to learn: women are trash", but

By the 1930s, a new kind of human zoo appeared in America, nude shows masquerading as education. These included the Zoro Garden Nudist Colony at the Pacific International Exposition in San Diego, California (1935–36) and the Sally Rand Nude Ranch at the Golden Gate International Exposition in San Francisco (1939). The former was supposedly a real nudist colony, which used hired performers instead of actual nudists. The latter featured nude women performing in western attire. The Golden Gate fair also featured a "Greenwich Village" show, described in the Official Guide Book as "Model artists' colony and revue theatre."

Or this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo#/media/File:African_...

Sorry if I stand with Aristotle, despite him being a man of his times, and not with 20th century human zoo.

edit: to put it simply, should we talk to German people or everytime they try to say something we should shut them up reminding them that they did the holocaust?

When I disagree with someone from the US, can I use "you are the only people in history to have dropped two atomic bombs on civilians, you are wrong by design!"?

Why Aristotle is problematic, but nobody says "he was a Trump but a lot more intelligent than Trump and actually, now that I think about it, he never said >, so Aristotle was less misogynist than Trump"?

Aristotle has never been POTUS.

I understand pushing society forward, so why blame people who have died thousands of years ago for things they are not responsible of today?

Does someone really think that quoting that sentence from Aristotle will plant the seed of misogyny in people's mind?

Is this really the kind of trust we have in each other's intelligence?

I believe people can read the context loud and clear.

Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?

#300

Post by twblalock »

anotheracctfo wrote: post #289
twblalock wrote: post #283

It's best to learn to deal with processes. Some companies do have really bad ones, and if that happens you should leave, but all companies will have some level of process, and every job will have some amount of work you don't like doing. Learning how to deal with this is a career skill. Remember that to your employer, you are not a coder, just as a firefighter is not a hose operator. To your employer, you are someone…

This is 100% true for progressing to management. However the OP doesn't want management, which is fine, that's what principals are for. They should just find a good "servant leadership" manager who will get all the BS out of their way, and let them do "their job."

Even ICs benefit from learning this stuff.

There are really two paths: management or senior/staff IC. Up or out — stagnate in a low-level or mid-level role, and you will get replaced with a younger engineer who will do the same work for less, or a contractor, or outsourcing. Everyone is expected to improve until they reach either senior/staff IC or management. You can’t get there unless you learn how to deal with the non-coding parts of the job.

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